Oh, don't feel like this is derailing; I prefer to use my threads as think tanks rather than a place where I'm right and we talk about what I wanna talk about - that's how you end up with a bad deck or cards in the build for all the wrong reasons.MeowZeDung wrote: ↑3 years agoSo, I don't want to belabor the point beyond this post since, 1) it's not my thread nor is it the purpose of the thread and 2) we're talking about fractions of win percentage points with this, but I find it fascinating. I'll spoiler it as a courtesy and an attempt to not hijack too much:
SPOILERShowHideWell, they both give you the same thing in one regard, which is an additional mana onto your total mana production the following turn, but at a different cost right now. This really comes down to an ROI calculation and the longevity/resiliency of the investment. I disagree that Fellwar Stone (or any 2cmc rock that taps for 1 in a monocolored deck) provides a useful resource right away by itself. It's -1 mana the turn you play it. Now, it gives you ROI in terms of mana faster than Wayfarer's Bauble, which is -3 mana before it starts paying dividends, because Fellwar costs one less and can create mana right away unlike the tapped land from bauble:toctheyounger wrote: ↑3 years agoAs far as bauble vs fellwar goes, I fall on the side of fellwar - costing 1 functionally and providing useful resource right away is more helpful than the speed at which bauble operates, which isn't amazing.
Fellwar Stone hits 100% mana ROI the 3rd turn after you play it:Wayfarer's Bauble hits 100% mana ROI the 6th turn after you crack it and fetch the land:SPOILERShowHide- Turn X play stone, tap for 1 mana
- Turn X+1 tap for 1 mana
- Turn X+2 tap for 1 mana
- Turn X+3 tap for 1 mana, 100% ROI achievedNow, I'm guessing you aren't explicitly doing all this (admittedly simple) math out in your head; it's just intuitively obvious that the bauble is "slower" in this regard. But here's the point that I think actually matters: you aren't playing either of these cards for the benefit they give you on the turn you play them (there is none in this deck that I see right off hand) nor are you playing them to hit some mathematical threshold of mana ROI efficiency. You are playing them because they can get you to 5 mana prior to turn 5, or get you to some multiple of a turn sooner. I find it a tough sell to say that Fellwar does that better than Bauble, or at least significantly "better" enough that the added layer of vulnerability is worthwhile.SPOILERShowHide- Turn X crack the bauble, put the land in tapped
- Turn X+1 tap for 1 mana
- Turn X+2 tap for 1 mana
- Turn X+3 tap for 1 mana
- Turn X+4 tap for 1 mana
- Turn X+5 tap for 1 mana
- Turn X+6 tap for 1 mana, 100% ROI achieved
However, I find it a very easy sell to say that Harmonic Sliver, Austere Command, Trygon Predator, Vandalblast, Disenchant and a zillion others exist and fill this format. It's all fun and games until the Roon of the Hidden Realm player starts a Deadeye Navigator/Reclamation Sage bouncefest. Go redo the above ROI calculations on bauble vs stone after a Cyclonic Rift has put you back to 5 mana instead of 6 AND you have to redeploy Purph. I mean, even this list runs Steel Hellkite and Meteor Golem and can ruin the rock enthusiast's day. Cards don't live in a vacuum.
I think some of the same issues exist for Everflowing Chalice. While you do have the ability to pull some nonsense in the late game like multi-kick for with still available to still get in two activations this turn and have a huge follow up turn (if it makes it around the table), I know many players would certainly take advantage of the opportunity to Negate that in a hurry, or time walk you with a Krosan Grip before you can tap it and recoup half the mana you just spent.
If your meta has MLD, this is a different conversation as Dirk pointed out. Assuming that isn't the case for your meta and with the strength of rituals like Irencrag Feat and Seething Song for ramping out Purph and getting you multiple activations sooner, I would argue that you should be leaning away from most rocks except for the truly great ones and maybe even toss in Shatterstorm or Subterranean Tremors to slingshot your way ahead of the table on mana.
TL;DR - After the stellar ramp options of Sol Ring/rituals/Solemn Simulacrum/Coalition Relic in this deck, for my money I would want that additional basic mountain on the table from Wayfarer's Bauble. It's definitely at it's best turns 1-3, but even apart from that I think it gives a better chance for you to both get to the next multiple of for Sneak Attacks and STAY there.
Your logic here is fairly reasonable. I'm not really interested in ROI long term, the rocks/ramp package here is purely here to get me to the point of casting Purph. I've seen very little rock destruction thus far, but then it's a sensible assumption while facing down this deck that destroying my rocks would be of benefit.
Ultimately, I'm a little torn on where I go for ramp for the deck. Low to the ground rocks have been fine so far, but I can concede that you do have a point around rocks being fragile. I've even considered the possibility that Walking Atlas could be reasonable here. I think what's causing my forehead to wrinkle is that the options are really quite slim and the min/max advantage of one over another is in a lot of cases infinitesimal, or the premium options are just out of reach of me ever owning.