Varina, Lich Queen - Esper Zombie Midrange

yeti1069 · Post by **yeti1069** » 2 years ago

In a game just now, I 1-sided board wiped with Noxious Ghoul out by casting Tainted Adversary and paying for its ability twice, giving non-zombies -5/-5 for the turn.

Post by **pokken** » 2 years ago

Tainted adversary seems great tbh I missed that it was a zombie.

yeti1069 · Post by **yeti1069** » 2 years ago

Felt kind of bad this game. One guy was playing Pir & Toothy and Noxious Ghoul alongside Phyrexian Tower and Unholy Grotto meant he felt like he couldn't keep a board, and just didn't play anything...except to help the humans player by bouncing their Angel of Glory's Rise. The last guy was playing mutate and infect, and quit fairly early after he got swung at a few times (being kind of a baby, since he put 4 infect on me already, and on the next turn could have dropped his commander and swung for another 6 to kill me).

Sigard/human player was the big problem for me, building a big board, exiling a bunch of my stuff with the Angel, and then having the Angel in hand to do it again at some point meant I had to play very conservatively. When he made a big board again, I got back Noxious, at end of turn, played it and Tombstone Stairwell to give everything -7/-7 on the next upkeep, which wiped everyone again. Since I had the Tower open still, it didn't make sense for him to cast Angel of Glory's Rise again, so he just got back to building a board after killing NG. Played conservatively for a bit, with cards in hand dwindling, and unable to keep anything going. I tried playing Varina the following turn with Tombstone out, but Toothy player bounced all creatures when I went to combat, so I couldn't loot. Next turn Tombstone got removed, but I used my open mana to make a couple of zombies with Varina and tried to loot a bit.

Toothy player scooped, because they felt like I was playing too much stax for them (literally just Noxious Ghoul and the ability to both sacrifice in response to exile removal, and recur it each turn). That just left me and humans. I got Sevinne's Reclamation and used it to return Phyrexian Altar and two worthwhile zombies alongside Varina to try and pressure him into casting the Angel. This worked, and I sacrificed my board to the Altar to avoid exile, but was down to one card in hand: Cyclonic Rift, which I didn't want to cast, since I didn't want to give him the Angel back yet again. He brought back several humans who buffed each other to some BIG stats, and I was dead on board without a good top deck on my turn.

Well...Patriarch's Bidding showed up to save the day! Noxious Ghoul gave -6/-6 which did not kill his board, but with the rest of my open mana, and sacrificing two zombies to make mana, I payed into Tainted Adversary 3 times, to make another -6/-6, which DID wipe his board, and left me with a solid field, so he scooped.

I've been pretty happy with Tainted Adversary so far. I've had one game where I just played him on curve as a 2/3 deathtouch (was relevant both to get a couple of attacks through, and then to ward off, and later block some scary attacks), and a couple games where I paid for his trigger and got some benefit out of it. In this game, it was fantastic! I'm looking forward to playing it out with Kindred Discovery on the table to draw a bunch of cards.

plaganegra · Post by **plaganegra** » 2 years ago

pokken wrote: ↑
2 years ago

Reya wrote: ↑
2 years ago
With all the stuff we have now, we have to make room !

How many mass reanimation spell and how many board wipe do you run ? I play:

- Twilight's Call
- Living Death
- Zombie Apocalypse
- Patriarch's Bidding
- Toxic Deluge
- Damn
I run:
Instant speed mass reanimation - because I run a lot more sac outlets than most these cards are pretty nasty (and also ramp).

Cosmic Intervention

Faith's Reward

Just mass reanimation
Zombie Apocalypse

Twilight's Call

Patriarch's Bidding

Sweepers
Living Death

Winds of Abandon

Honorable Mention
Dictate of Erebos

I don't think this is a Toxic Deluge or Damn deck personally. Rarely do I find a board state that I can't fix with one of the above cards. I'd rather try to go over the top of decks with problematic creature board states (e.g. draining them out, garying/shepherding them, etc.), or get them with an effect that preserves my board state (Living Death / Winds of Abandon).

I'd probably play Decree of Pain if I actually wanted a creature based board wipe.

This deck's ability to recover from symmetrical wipes is definitely an advantage and running toxic deluge has been a must for me from day 1 to get around all sorts of nasty things at only 3 mana. Often I allow other people to overextend before wiping the board with deluge, following it up with zombies (free zombies or otherwise cheap) the same turn. Toxic Deluge is unique because of its very desirable casting cost and flexibility allowing you to play more than one spell that turn usually - I think it is crazy to skip this card in the deck, but I get your points.

For reference I run these board wipes and mass reanimate spells:

Wipes:

Reanimate:

Also, I run Rise of the Dread Marn, and find it to be great with wipes lol. It is great to have access to when I am planning to over-extend my own board. And often I plan for it when I sequence my turns.

I have been served well by running 3/3 wipes to mass reanimate. With Living Death sort of filling both roles quite well. I usually don't want to draw more than 1 mass reanimate in a game, and usually do not rely on it to win (but sometimes it makes winning pretty easy). I would rather draw a variety of spells that help support the overall strategy focusing on Varina cycle triggers, which pretty much guarantees I will see at least 1, and sometimes 2 reanimate spells when the deck is operating as it should because of how many cards I see in a game. 4 is probably the most mass reanimate I would run but for me it is too many. 3 board wipes seems ideal as well in my experience, allowing me to have room for some counterspells and targeted removal as well. Again, with the amount of cards I usually see in a game I want to be able to sculpt my hand to the table.

Edit - I forgot, recently I added back in Balthor the Defiled, but will be promptly removing it for the new archaeo-zombie lol.

toctheyounger · Post by **toctheyounger** » 2 years ago

Again, with the amount of cards I usually see in a game I want to be able to sculpt my hand to the table.

This is it really. I've always played a dearth of these spells to account for relatively middling draw, but I don't feel like that's the case anymore. With Study, Remora, the death draw zombies and FoF variants as well as Varina my build has gone from if I draw a wipe/reanimate to when. Abd thats a nice place to be; it can mean spinning wheels a bit to wait for the right cards but it also opens up slots to give the deck some more utility and variance.

Sounds like Tainted Adversary is getting people there too. I'm not quite ready to take the leap just yet (I figure eventually the prices will drop a touch, likewise with Champion of the Perished), but it might be worth it. I'll freely admit if I was wrong.

From all of the gameplay feedback it sounds like Noxious Ghoul is still the all star of the board wipe team too.

yeti1069 · Post by **yeti1069** » 2 years ago

He is, though I did also cast a Cleansing Nova in there, too, to slow everyone down. I've cast that before to just hit artifacts and enchantments, but the more often I play it, the more I feel it should just be Austere Command. I like Nova coming out earlier, or being easier to follow up with another spell, but too often I'm unhappy with not hitting creatures at all at the same time.

I don't know what kind of games you get into @pokken but I've been at plenty of tables where Varina isn't the baddest deck at the table, and board wipes are a necessity. Going over the top or draining doesn't work if someone else is going over the top better/bigger.

The more I think about Overcharged Amalgam the more certain I am that I'll include it, although it won't counter ETB triggers from our opponents' creatures coming in on one of our mass reanimates.

Post by **pokken** » 2 years ago

toctheyounger wrote: ↑
2 years ago
From all of the gameplay feedback it sounds like Noxious Ghoul is still the all star of the board wipe team too.

Ghoul has been pretty dominant for me to the point that I tutor for it, and am thinking of adding Dread Return to my Intuition library so I can fetch it. Right now intuition is mostly for the Sevinne's Reclamation + Phyrexian Altar + Gravecrawler pile, but I could see adding a 'reanimate target problem creature' pile.

In general decks have been getting lower and lower to the ground lately an the derpier their creatures are the more they die to playing two zombies and ghoul. And everything dies to Twilight's Call + Noxious Ghoul.

plaganegra · Post by **plaganegra** » 2 years ago

pokken wrote: ↑
2 years ago

toctheyounger wrote: ↑
2 years ago
From all of the gameplay feedback it sounds like Noxious Ghoul is still the all star of the board wipe team too.
Ghoul has been pretty dominant for me to the point that I tutor for it, and am thinking of adding Dread Return to my Intuition library so I can fetch it. Right now intuition is mostly for the Sevinne's Reclamation + Phyrexian Altar + Gravecrawler pile, but I could see adding a 'reanimate target problem creature' pile.

I would love to know what all of your Intuition piles are! Would you mind sharing?

Eburon · Post by **Eburon** » 2 years ago

I wanted to put a quick plug for The Meathook Massacre as a possible wipe. The fact that it can double as a wincon with it's drain effect is great.

Post by **pokken** » 2 years ago

plaganegra wrote: ↑
2 years ago
I would love to know what all of your Intuition piles are! Would you mind sharing?

My go to is of course the Sevinne's Reclamation pile.

The next best is two reanimation spells and Archaeomancer (who will now be Repository Skaab) -- Living Death + Twilight's Call work best here but now that we have skaab it can be Patriarch's Bidding over call.

The deck has so much redundancy that you can also do '3 of this thing' (e.g. sac outlets or drain zombies).

Crucible of Worlds Sevinne's Reclamation and Field of the Dead is a reasonable endgame strategy.

Sevinne's Reclamation + Cabal Coffers + Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth gets you coffers, can also slip Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx in there.

That same thing works with Phyrexian Tower + Unholy Grotto to set up loops.

You can also think of it as crappy Buried Alive and just get a pile of 3 combo pieces and see what they give you, then mass reanimate and kill them

(stuff like Putrid Goblin + Mikaeus, the Unhallowed + whatever).

Just thinking through all of this makes me realize I probably need to play either Body Double or Dread Return, and possibly Phyrexian Delver.

plaganegra · Post by **plaganegra** » 2 years ago

Eburon wrote: ↑
2 years ago
I wanted to put a quick plug for The Meathook Massacre as a possible wipe. The fact that it can double as a wincon with it's drain effect is great.

I have considered this card for a while now, and I have some thoughts I want to share.

Personally I am passing on this one in my deck because it doesn't do either thing that well in context, which can be expected for a hybrid card like this. It is either a very expensive board wipe or a non-zombie aristocrat. I wouldn't run zulaport cutthroat or black sun's zenith in this deck, and although the hybrid is tempting, I wouldn't run The Meathook Massacre either. I am jamming the card into both my chatterfang, squirrel general deck, and yawgmoth, thran physician deck - both of which have abundant abilities to ramp this card into a more potent ability where this feels more like the best of both cards, rather than (in this case) an awkward hybrid.

Especially given its price point I think the meathook can be left in the slaughterhouse.

Post by **pokken** » 2 years ago

Man meathook is a windmill slam for me as I've considered adding Bastion of Remembrance but it's just so stupidly overpriced. Before the whole finance nonsense it would be a $1 card but now everyone speculates on EDH.

plaganegra · Post by **plaganegra** » 2 years ago

pokken wrote: ↑
2 years ago

plaganegra wrote: ↑
2 years ago
I would love to know what all of your Intuition piles are! Would you mind sharing?
My go to is of course the Sevinne's Reclamation pile.

The next best is two reanimation spells and Archaeomancer (who will now be Repository Skaab) -- Living Death + Twilight's Call work best here but now that we have skaab it can be Patriarch's Bidding over call.

The deck has so much redundancy that you can also do '3 of this thing' (e.g. sac outlets or drain zombies).

Crucible of Worlds Sevinne's Reclamation and Field of the Dead is a reasonable endgame strategy.

Sevinne's Reclamation + Cabal Coffers + Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth gets you coffers, can also slip Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx in there.

That same thing works with Phyrexian Tower + Unholy Grotto to set up loops.

You can also think of it as crappy Buried Alive and just get a pile of 3 combo pieces and see what they give you, then mass reanimate and kill them (stuff like Putrid Goblin + Mikaeus, the Unhallowed + whatever).

Just thinking through all of this makes me realize I probably need to play either Body Double or Dread Return, and possibly Phyrexian Delver.

These are very interesting and I think that the best of the three you mentioned at the end is Dread Return. I didn't know body double was a card - also interesting.

I usually use it for utility zombies that I want in the GY or a value package like this where is it basically just instant-speed buried alive (since you can just discard the zombie with varina anyway).

I have access to the "I win combo" but I rarely bust that out in a game just because I enjoy the challenge of winning by turning zombies sideways haha. But I have used it when games go too long or my deck appears obviously outclassed at the table. Unfair things demand unfair things.

I also use it as a pseudo-demonic tutor like ability to get three redundant answers, or answers + snapcaster mage.

Recently I took out dread return, but I think it is a must have with intuition. Either or unburial rites - some sort of flashback re-animator. What are your thoughts?

plaganegra · Post by **plaganegra** » 2 years ago

pokken wrote: ↑
2 years ago
Man meathook is a windmill slam for me as I've considered adding Bastion of Remembrance but it's just so stupidly overpriced. Before the whole finance nonsense it would be a $1 card but now everyone speculates on EDH.

In your build focused specifically on aristocrats I would definitely make an exception haha.

I think it is played in standard which is pushing the price. But idk I only play edh. This is an all-time black staple that oozes black-flavor, refers to a classic horror movie, and has a wide range of applications though so it will always be valuable.

toctheyounger · Post by **toctheyounger** » 2 years ago

plaganegra wrote: ↑
2 years ago

pokken wrote: ↑
2 years ago
Man meathook is a windmill slam for me as I've considered adding Bastion of Remembrance but it's just so stupidly overpriced. Before the whole finance nonsense it would be a $1 card but now everyone speculates on EDH.
In your build focused specifically on aristocrats I would definitely make an exception haha.

I think it is played in standard which is pushing the price. But idk I only play edh. This is an all-time black staple that oozes black-flavor, refers to a classic horror movie, and has a wide range of applications though so it will always be valuable.

I have thoughts on Meathook that run along similar veins, pardon the pun.

From what I understand its played in standard but not everywhere. This seems to be one of those circumstances where our format is driving the price for this card predominantly. Its happened before but probably not quite so immediately upon release before, and I think with the format being as prevalent as it is this is just going to happen more and more.

With that in mind I'm actually sort of glad that we're coming out the other end of zombie season on Innistrad, because my trade binder and wallet won't sustain a lot more punishment, and with Necroduality hitting sleeves in the next couple weeks I think there's a really good chance it'll act the same way, to some degree. Its unlikely to be quite as prevalent in standard given it really only fits in a tribal shell, but at the same time, zombies are a very popular tribe. I pop into the Nitpicking Nerds discord every now and then, and there's just...a ton of zombie builds around. Its why the prices for any zombie tech have just skyrocketed of late. I'm glad I picked up my Noxious for like 50 cents.

Back to Meathook, I think its one of those cards thats fine. It does what my deck wants from a bleeder perspective, and the Zenith effect is middling but makes the card that much better as a staple on option if needed, kinda like the MDFC lands. They're not stellar, but having the option of a spell or a land is really good value. I don't think its a lock here but I can't fault anyone who has a copy for playing it for sure. Intently buying it for the asking price right now though...I don't see that its worth current market prices myself.

Eburon · Post by **Eburon** » 2 years ago

I'm not saying The Meathook is a slamdunk include, but it merits consideration. It is definitely a card that shines in certain situations and is underwhelming in others. That said, a board wipe effect that has a lasting effect after casting it does make it worth considering for me (not taking it's current price in consideration for a moment).

Post by **pokken** » 2 years ago

huh Storm of Souls seems like a reasonable card to try for me anyway - it's annoying that it exiles, but it's nice that it's asymmetrical and makes flying zombies for Varina...that can be Skullclamp'd.

yeti1069 · Post by **yeti1069** » 2 years ago

Here's my current list (maybe a few recent changes I haven't playtested yet).

Varina's Undying Horde

Approximate Total Cost:

And the cards I'm considering, or have taken out to try some cards out, but are still on my "probably include" list.

Maybe Board

Sorceries

1 Damn

Creatures

1 Bladestitched Skaab

1 Bone Miser

1 Grimgrin, Corpse-Born

1 Headless Rider

1 Hordewing Skaab

1 Liliana's Standard Bearer

1 Lord of the Accursed

1 Master of Death

1 Overcharged Amalgam

1 Ravenous Rotbelly

1 Repository Skaab

Artifacts

1 Bontu's Monument

1 Expedition Map

Enchantments

1 Dying to Serve

1 Ghoulish Procession

1 Teferi's Ageless Insight

1 Zombie Infestation

1 Necroduality

Planeswalkers

1 Liliana, Dreadhorde General

Instants

1 Plumb the Forbidden

Approximate Total Cost:

Trying to figure out what to cut, particularly for the new cards I want to try.

Post by **pokken** » 2 years ago

I think i'd play Dread Return over Unburial Rites basically always in this deck. Otherwise looks pretty reasonable all around

yeti1069 · Post by **yeti1069** » 2 years ago

pokken wrote: ↑
2 years ago
I think i'd play Dread Return over Unburial Rites basically always in this deck. Otherwise looks pretty reasonable all around

You may be right, but I was thinking Unburial can get me back into the game when I'm behind, or help advance the board when I'm building, whereas Dread Return can't do that from the yard--need board state.

Post by **pokken** » 2 years ago

yeti1069 wrote: ↑
2 years ago
You may be right, but I was thinking Unburial can get me back into the game when I'm behind, or help advance the board when I'm building, whereas Dread Return can't do that from the yard--need board state.

I feel like both cards are probably 'close the game' cards rather than 'get me back in it.' reanimating a single creature is probably not going to do a whole lot unless it's one of a handful of creatures. Definitely got to trust your gut there though. It's probably reasonably close.

yeti1069 · Post by **yeti1069** » 2 years ago

pokken wrote: ↑
2 years ago

yeti1069 wrote: ↑
2 years ago
You may be right, but I was thinking Unburial can get me back into the game when I'm behind, or help advance the board when I'm building, whereas Dread Return can't do that from the yard--need board state.
I feel like both cards are probably 'close the game' cards rather than 'get me back in it.' reanimating a single creature is probably not going to do a whole lot unless it's one of a handful of creatures. Definitely got to trust your gut there though. It's probably reasonably close.

So I guess it comes down to how many close out the game creatures we have (-3 other random guys) vs how many get back in it creatures.

plaganegra · Post by **plaganegra** » 2 years ago

@yeti1069

These seem like flexible slots you can easily play with - none seem to fill a critical role in the deck.

Note - Silversmote is one of my fav zombies, but it is not essential. Personally I would leave it, but I feel Master of Death is an essential Zombie in this deck. It draws you a card every turn for free with Varina out.

Attack with Zombie while Varina, Lich Queen is out
Varina trigger
Draw card, discard master of death *instead of the other card you just drew* AND gain 1-life.
Next upkeep trigger and get master of death back for 1-life.
Repeat every turn you can.

Master of death is a *FREE* draw effect in this deck that you can also cast and swing with, or mass reanimate. That's right - zero mana investment and minimal setup (attack with a zombie while varina is out). Obvious Auto-include status IMO. Everyone should run it in Varina unless you don't use your commander.

Of your Maybe-board these are my favorites:

These are not suggestions of 1-for-1 swaps or anything, more of a general list.

Grave Scrabbler is a card I have never really looked at - seems like a solid 2-for-1 with active varina. Love that it is a homage to gravedigger lol.

You probably want to be mindful of the card ratios in your deck and the roles individual cards play, as well as your overall curve and sequencing. Once I come up with what works for me I try not change things too drastically. The only exception is that I prefer to lower my curve any chance I get!

That is why I compared silversmote ghoul with master of death - they are both incremental value engines. Ghoul is more aggressive, and master is more difficult to interact with. I run both because these are both things I want to be doing as often as possible as the deck snowballs into pile of zombies I can play with.

yeti1069 · Post by **yeti1069** » 2 years ago

So on the one hand, Rot Hulk is top of the curve, and I rarely hard cast it, but on the other, when I get it into play, it's almost always a play-maker. Often it comes in for free off Rooftop Storm, or gets reanimated for huge value off Apprentice Necromancer. Occasionally, I've reanimated it with Havengul. Each time, it's sort of a mini-mass reanimate that brings in a 5/5 w/ Menace in addition to whatever was in the yard. Even if he comes in off a real mass reanimate, he's a decent body, and can set up big plays if that also got Apprentice or Mikaeus. In particular, I don't want to cut it yet, because I want to see how it runs alongside more targeted reanimation.

Havengul is kind of in the same boat: expensive, but when it works, it does big things. I had considered dropping it, but I want to keep it until I've had a chance to run it with Overcharged Amalgam for a while, as I expect that the pairing could be solid.

Fleshbag was on my list of possible cuts. I've had games where it was useful, and a few where it did some big stuff, but it often just isn't impressive.

Silversmote I've only gotten to do its thing a time or two, and am still on the fence about it. Master of Death had been in the deck for a bit, and did what it was supposed to. May come back in.

Rite of Oblivion is me trying out some flashback tech, along with Unburial Rites. Both may end up getting the boot, but I want to see how they run first. Grave Scrabbler would essentially be adding to this package, but I find it pretty underwhelming.

yeti1069 · Post by **yeti1069** » 2 years ago

So the cards probably on the chopping block right now:
Snappy for Overcharged
Tidehollow Sculler--i like it, but I don't have that many sac outlets.
Fleshbag
Silversmote
Corpse Augur--just put it in again. Going to see if it pulls its weight
Cleansing Nova for Austere Command...maybe...don't want to add to the curve more, but it's simply a better card

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