Okay, and? Power level is not a banlist criteria. Next.Gashnaw wrote: ↑3 years agoPrimarily cause a mock up deck I threw together had 4 infinite combos with him that are easy to pull off, and seven that get you a finite number of black lotuses that still more than enough.TheGildedGoose wrote: ↑3 years agoKeep your shirt on. Why on Earth would Garth be banned? Because he's in the command zone and combos?
and two combos that allow me to use all five abilities in one turn, but then I would have to find a way to blink him. i can do so, but generally not part of the combo so I did not include it.
this was mocked up in about 10-15 minutes not much thought put into it. If i can do it, i'm pretty sure some form of thought can pull it off and be far, FAR worse.
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TheGildedGoose HONK HONK
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...TheGildedGoose wrote: ↑3 years agoOkay, and? Power level is not a banlist criteria. Next.Gashnaw wrote: ↑3 years agoPrimarily cause a mock up deck I threw together had 4 infinite combos with him that are easy to pull off, and seven that get you a finite number of black lotuses that still more than enough.TheGildedGoose wrote: ↑3 years agoKeep your shirt on. Why on Earth would Garth be banned? Because he's in the command zone and combos?
and two combos that allow me to use all five abilities in one turn, but then I would have to find a way to blink him. i can do so, but generally not part of the combo so I did not include it.
this was mocked up in about 10-15 minutes not much thought put into it. If i can do it, i'm pretty sure some form of thought can pull it off and be far, FAR worse.
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Power level has been the ONLY criteria for the ban list. I mean they BANNED Paradox Engine for a reason.
- toctheyounger
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Paradox Engine was banned because it would bust almost anything you put it with and took over games, not only in terms of ending them but dominating time spent on one person's gameplay over the rest of the table. I might hate Garth One-Eye (why %$#% Garth*? What a stupid design), but these two cards are not comparable. Dollars to donuts he stays in the format. I won't enjoy playing against him but he'll stay.Gashnaw wrote: ↑3 years ago...TheGildedGoose wrote: ↑3 years agoOkay, and? Power level is not a banlist criteria. Next.Gashnaw wrote: ↑3 years ago
Primarily cause a mock up deck I threw together had 4 infinite combos with him that are easy to pull off, and seven that get you a finite number of black lotuses that still more than enough.
and two combos that allow me to use all five abilities in one turn, but then I would have to find a way to blink him. i can do so, but generally not part of the combo so I did not include it.
this was mocked up in about 10-15 minutes not much thought put into it. If i can do it, i'm pretty sure some form of thought can pull it off and be far, FAR worse.
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Power level has been the ONLY criteria for the ban list. I mean they BANNED Paradox Engine for a reason.
*edit - Googled the lore, still hate it.
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TheGildedGoose HONK HONK
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lol what
Here are the various criteria the RC uses to determine if something is banworthy:
Here are the various criteria the RC uses to determine if something is banworthy:
Garth is fine. You're living in a fantasy world.Cause severe resource imbalances
Allow players to win out of nowhere
Prevent players from contributing to the game in a meaningful way
Cause other players to feel they must play certain cards, even though they are also problematic
Are very difficult for other players to interact with, especially if doing so requires dedicated, narrow responses when deck building
Interact poorly with the multiplayer nature of the format or the specific rules of Commander
Lead to repetitive game play
- CommanderMaster999
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Garth is not bannable truth quite a bit of you don't realize is Deadeye Navigator is really only one that can do it with him entering untapped and immediately come back and still have mana available.
(all cards are just examples)
Emiel the Blessed is the only other one that can do it but equires Heartstone effects to do it.
some flickers make him enter tapped Eldrazi Displacer
some require tapping them Nephalia Smuggler
won't come back till end step Roon of the Hidden Realm
the one shot flickers and you need his Regrowth part as well Cloudshift
to much cmc required Livio, Oathsworn Sentinel
And can only be activated once without flicker effects Aminatou, the Fateshifter
and even with no problems with that Garth cost to cast with summoning sickness and all the pieces have to be alive and be able to activate him immediately lots of hoops to jump and quite a fragile infinite
(all cards are just examples)
Emiel the Blessed is the only other one that can do it but equires Heartstone effects to do it.
some flickers make him enter tapped Eldrazi Displacer
some require tapping them Nephalia Smuggler
won't come back till end step Roon of the Hidden Realm
the one shot flickers and you need his Regrowth part as well Cloudshift
to much cmc required Livio, Oathsworn Sentinel
And can only be activated once without flicker effects Aminatou, the Fateshifter
and even with no problems with that Garth cost to cast with summoning sickness and all the pieces have to be alive and be able to activate him immediately lots of hoops to jump and quite a fragile infinite
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I like the design but she(?) looks a little weak. But a cost voltron looks funmarioguy3 wrote: ↑3 years agoZabaz, the Glimmerwasp is a cool little card with an awesome first activated ability. It might provide a "glimmer" into the future of modular in competitive formats.
might switch line slinger for the bugilovesaprolings wrote: ↑3 years agoI like the design but she(?) looks a little weak. But a cost voltron looks funmarioguy3 wrote: ↑3 years agoZabaz, the Glimmerwasp is a cool little card with an awesome first activated ability. It might provide a "glimmer" into the future of modular in competitive formats.
The Secret of Commander (EDH)
Sheldon-"The secret of this format is in not breaking it. "
That is probably true. And even things like Ichor Wellspring and Mycosynth Wellspring start to have reasonable value. I will probably look more into it this weekend to see what I can come up with.BeneTleilax wrote: ↑3 years agoThe recursion suite of RW artifacts means it should be more resilient in the face of removal than most Boros combat strategies, and Zabaz is cheap to boot.WizardMN wrote: ↑3 years agoI was thinking the same thing. It seems like a cool Boros general. It still relies on combat (though there is probably some decent combo potential for people that like that) but I have started getting kind of down on Gisela so I might try to scrap her and try something new with Zabaz. It looks pretty interesting at the very least and it is nice to see different things like this.BeneTleilax wrote: ↑3 years agoI might just have to build Zabaz, here's hoping for more modular support!
- toctheyounger
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Subtlety. Venser, Shaper Savant got some competition for that control game. This is pretty strong with a shell able to repeatedly ETB it.
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JovialJovian Captain, I object!
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I feel like Grist, the Hunger Tide is wizards doing a test-case to see how they can get planeswalker commanders without resorting to "This card can be your commander."
If the RC allows it, we will see more planeswalker commanders, and that will further erode the distinction, toward Wizards' desire that all planeswalkers should be allowed as commanders.
If the RC allows it, we will see more planeswalker commanders, and that will further erode the distinction, toward Wizards' desire that all planeswalkers should be allowed as commanders.
I literally zoomed in on the art to make sure it didn't depict a cowboy.toctheyounger wrote: ↑3 years agoJust saw Garth One-Eye and i hate it. I don't know if it's lazy design, looks annoying to play against, or I hate the name. I think its a combination of all of them. Is this a lore character I don't know of? When I hear Garth I picture Dana Carvey in Wayne's World.
“Comboing in Commander is like dunking on a seven foot hoop.” – Dana Roach
“Making a deck that other people want to play against – that’s Commander.” – Gavin Duggan
"I want my brain to win games, not my cards." – Sheldon Menery
“Making a deck that other people want to play against – that’s Commander.” – Gavin Duggan
"I want my brain to win games, not my cards." – Sheldon Menery
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DirkGently My wins are unconditional
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Lol this conversation is basically just Gashnaw repeatedly falling down a flight of stairs, loudly declaring that he's not falling down a flight of stairs, and then falling down more stairs.
Garth's design is weird but I'd be shocked if he was really problematic compared to other things that already exist.
Bug boy seems like a really boring deck tbh since you're kinda incentivised to just pack 60+ bugs in there even if you rarely plan to cast them. Idk, seems pretty linear tbh.
Storm ooze...eh, doubt it'll get much play, which is fine. The fewer time-monopolising decks out there, the better.
Modular bug is cool, though it's probably impossible to beat Marchesa, the Black Rose as a modular enabler.
Garth's design is weird but I'd be shocked if he was really problematic compared to other things that already exist.
Bug boy seems like a really boring deck tbh since you're kinda incentivised to just pack 60+ bugs in there even if you rarely plan to cast them. Idk, seems pretty linear tbh.
Storm ooze...eh, doubt it'll get much play, which is fine. The fewer time-monopolising decks out there, the better.
Modular bug is cool, though it's probably impossible to beat Marchesa, the Black Rose as a modular enabler.
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan
Flux Decks
Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan
Flux Decks
Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
- toctheyounger
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Yeah, something about it just lacks subtlety to me, in both the design and the flavour. Clearly I'm not familiar with his place in the lore, so I don't know if it's a good fit or not, but there's just no part of the card that appeals to me whatsoever.Legend wrote: ↑3 years agoI literally zoomed in on the art to make sure it didn't depict a cowboy.toctheyounger wrote: ↑3 years agoJust saw Garth One-Eye and i hate it. I don't know if it's lazy design, looks annoying to play against, or I hate the name. I think its a combination of all of them. Is this a lore character I don't know of? When I hear Garth I picture Dana Carvey in Wayne's World.
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It's 100% not that. It's a cool design with a *ton* of other interesting interactions in Modern. Making it so it works as a commander is a side effect of that, and one a lot of people assumed upon seeing it (as evidenced by all the questions), so making it work that way was more intuitive than not doing so. If it was designed as a commander on-ramp, it'd... probably be actually good as a commander? Where right now it feels far more "cute" than good.JovialJovian wrote: ↑3 years agoI feel like Grist, the Hunger Tide is wizards doing a test-case to see how they can get planeswalker commanders without resorting to "This card can be your commander."
If the RC allows it, we will see more planeswalker commanders, and that will further erode the distinction, toward Wizards' desire that all planeswalkers should be allowed as commanders.
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JovialJovian Captain, I object!
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Garth One-Eye is the "character that first appeared in a novel." That novel was in 1994, and his only other appearance was in a second novel, also in 1994. He's never appeared on a card, not even mentioned in flavor text, so if you weren't following the backstory outside of the cards back then, you'll probably have never heard of Garth.
For the handful of people who remember him, an exciting appearance, for everyone else, it's just a bit strange. His ability is a cute callback to his being from 1994, as all of his spells are from Alpha.
For the handful of people who remember him, an exciting appearance, for everyone else, it's just a bit strange. His ability is a cute callback to his being from 1994, as all of his spells are from Alpha.
- BeneTleilax
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Garth is just a Tiffany/Smith Problem-type name, actually ancient Anglo-Saxon (and possibly Welsh). Personally, I'm fine with Magic stepping into Tiffany Problems so long as they do it seriously (ie: not putting Garth in a cowboy hat). Refusal to do so leads to a steadily contracting ring of "acceptable fantasy names" until only the most absurd names are "believable" within the genre. This isn't a slippery slope even, this happened in the 80's.toctheyounger wrote: ↑3 years agoYeah, something about it just lacks subtlety to me, in both the design and the flavour. Clearly I'm not familiar with his place in the lore, so I don't know if it's a good fit or not, but there's just no part of the card that appeals to me whatsoever.Legend wrote: ↑3 years agoI literally zoomed in on the art to make sure it didn't depict a cowboy.toctheyounger wrote: ↑3 years agoJust saw Garth One-Eye and i hate it. I don't know if it's lazy design, looks annoying to play against, or I hate the name. I think its a combination of all of them. Is this a lore character I don't know of? When I hear Garth I picture Dana Carvey in Wayne's World.
Chesterton wrote:I remember a long time ago a sensible sub-editor coming up to me with a book in his hand, called "Mr. Smith," or "The Smith Family," or some such thing. He said, "Well, you won't get any of your damned mysticism out of this," or words to that effect. I am happy to say that I undeceived him; but the victory was too obvious and easy. In most cases the name is unpoetical, although the fact is poetical. In the case of Smith, the name is so poetical that it must be an arduous and heroic matter for the man to live up to it. The name of Smith is the name of the one trade that even kings respected, it could claim half the glory of that arma virumque which all epics acclaimed. The spirit of the smithy is so close to the spirit of song that it has mixed in a million poems, and every blacksmith is a harmonious blacksmith.
Even the village children feel that in some dim way the smith is poetic, as the grocer and the cobbler are not poetic, when they feast on the dancing sparks and deafening blows in the cavern of that creative violence. The brute repose of Nature, the passionate cunning of man, the strongest of earthly metals, the wierdest of earthly elements, the unconquerable iron subdued by its only conqueror, the wheel and the ploughshare, the sword and the steam-hammer, the arraying of armies and the whole legend of arms, all these things are written, briefly indeed, but quite legibly, on the visiting-card of Mr. Smith. Yet our novelists call their hero "Aylmer Valence," which means nothing, or "Vernon Raymond," which means nothing, when it is in their power to give him this sacred name of Smith--this name made of iron and flame
Last edited by BeneTleilax 3 years ago, edited 1 time in total.
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JovialJovian Captain, I object!
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I disagree. If I were designing a card to test the waters, I would not make it an obviously powerful commander. This isn't about convincing players to use planeswalkers as commanders at this stage, its about testing the boundaries with the RC, the pushed commander-viable planeswalkers would come later on.Wallycaine wrote: ↑3 years agoIt's 100% not that. It's a cool design with a *ton* of other interesting interactions in Modern. Making it so it works as a commander is a side effect of that, and one a lot of people assumed upon seeing it (as evidenced by all the questions), so making it work that way was more intuitive than not doing so. If it was designed as a commander on-ramp, it'd... probably be actually good as a commander? Where right now it feels far more "cute" than good.JovialJovian wrote: ↑3 years agoI feel like Grist, the Hunger Tide is wizards doing a test-case to see how they can get planeswalker commanders without resorting to "This card can be your commander."
If the RC allows it, we will see more planeswalker commanders, and that will further erode the distinction, toward Wizards' desire that all planeswalkers should be allowed as commanders.
I may be cynical, but Wizards has given me many reasons to assume the worst from them over the past year, so I'm on-alert for their shenanigans.
Ah yes, Subtlety being the next piece of the Evoke cycle gives me basically certainty that the white one will put +1/+1 counters on something and I'll die a little inside
- toctheyounger
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Yeah this one is 100% on me. I hate it but that's because the only other Garths I know from popular culture are in Wayne's World and Garth Marengi's Darkplace. It makes it seem more farcical than intended. But yes, I agree, not all names need to sound epic and verbose to evoke fantasy; my favourite series, the Malazan books, a lot of the characters are known by stupid derogatory nicknames - there's Gullstream, Blend, Greymane, Braven Tooth, Temper, Pores, Kindly (and that last is definitely a joke).BeneTleilax wrote: ↑3 years agoGarth is just a Tiffany/Smith Problem-type name, actually ancient Anglo-Saxon (and possibly Welsh). Personally, I'm fine with Magic stepping into Tiffany Problems so long as they do it seriously (ie: not putting Garth in a cowboy hat). Refusal to do so leads to a steadily contracting ring of "acceptable fantasy names" until only the most absurd names are "believable" within the genre. This isn't a slippery slope even, this happened in the 80's.
The card just seems...weird and doesn't really sit in a place that I like mostly. It isn't just the name, although I won't lie, that is part of it, although as above, that's baggage I'm bringing to the table myself.
- toctheyounger
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White deserves better. There's no reason they can't give it 'white-ramp' or some sort of permanent removal/exile effect. Hell, even a wipe would be reasonable and within white's identity.
- BeneTleilax
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You may be cynical, but you are not alone in that cynicism. Whenever the RC has given them an inch, they have in time taken miles. Oloro gave us Markov, and the Origins flipwalkers gave us Prismatic Bridge. Even in this thread, you can see the lineage from scattered easter eggs, to Twilight Sparkle, to Rick, Steadfast Leader, to any expectation of tone or flavor consistency being regarded as foolish optimism at best.JovialJovian wrote: ↑3 years agoI may be cynical, but Wizards has given me many reasons to assume the worst from them over the past year, so I'm on-alert for their shenanigans.
Last edited by BeneTleilax 3 years ago, edited 1 time in total.