"Isn't worse than Chulane or Yarok" doesn't say much. The fact that we are comparing Kodama to those ones kind of makes my point. He is at a power level beyond that of the other partner commanders from this set, and I think beyond that of any of the other commanders from this set. Is he going to break the format more than Chulane or Korvold did? No. But we don't really need more commanders at that level, and we were told none of the partner ones would be as broken as the original partners, and I think Kodama fails to live up to that promise.Wallycaine wrote: ↑3 years agoThat echoes my thoughts. Nothing about Kodama seems particularly worse than a strong green/Blue/something commander. Like, Yarok's one, another that comes to mind is Chulane, Teller of Tales. I'm not really sure Kodama's particularly scarier than either of those, even with a partner.pokken wrote: ↑3 years agoBoth 'powerful but ultimately fine' and "exponentially" feel like exaggerations. What partners is it going to be a problem with? It doesn't really synergize with any of the existing 2 color partners much at all that I can see.
As a mono green commander, I think you'd need to do some work to convince me that it's even in the top 10.
Just looking at the ability on its face, you have to put in some serious work before Kodama generates more than the 6 initial mana it cost when used fairly. Just replacement-mana-wise, you need to have two 7-drops in your hand and cast one to get a positive return on your investment immediately (that means spending 13 mana to get 14).
It also enables some really medium wombo-combos like Field of the Dead and a bounce land, but when you've set that up with 2 land drops and a Kodama and still have to pass the turn to win, I am not sure that's even worth worrying about.
Beyond that, what partner pairs with Kodama to create even a Yarok, the Desecrated level threat? I can't think of anything.
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I have 68 active EDH decks, with more in progress. I don't consider this a problem. Do you?
I am also one of those barbarians who enjoys winning by turning creatures sideways.
I am also one of those barbarians who enjoys winning by turning creatures sideways.
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Was that something we were told? Because I recall a lot of talk about making sure they were balanced, but nothing specifically about not being at the same power level as the original partners. Which, to me, implies that Gavin's and wizards idea of what makes a commander broken and yours are not the same.JWK wrote: ↑3 years ago"Isn't worse than Chulane or Yarok" doesn't say much. The fact that we are comparing Kodama to those ones kind of makes my point. He is at a power level beyond that of the other partner commanders from this set, and I think beyond that of any of the other commanders from this set. Is he going to break the format more than Chulane or Korvold did? No. But we don't really need more commanders at that level, and we were told none of the partner ones would be as broken as the original partners, and I think Kodama fails to live up to that promise.Wallycaine wrote: ↑3 years agoThat echoes my thoughts. Nothing about Kodama seems particularly worse than a strong green/Blue/something commander. Like, Yarok's one, another that comes to mind is Chulane, Teller of Tales. I'm not really sure Kodama's particularly scarier than either of those, even with a partner.pokken wrote: ↑3 years ago
Both 'powerful but ultimately fine' and "exponentially" feel like exaggerations. What partners is it going to be a problem with? It doesn't really synergize with any of the existing 2 color partners much at all that I can see.
As a mono green commander, I think you'd need to do some work to convince me that it's even in the top 10.
Just looking at the ability on its face, you have to put in some serious work before Kodama generates more than the 6 initial mana it cost when used fairly. Just replacement-mana-wise, you need to have two 7-drops in your hand and cast one to get a positive return on your investment immediately (that means spending 13 mana to get 14).
It also enables some really medium wombo-combos like Field of the Dead and a bounce land, but when you've set that up with 2 land drops and a Kodama and still have to pass the turn to win, I am not sure that's even worth worrying about.
Beyond that, what partner pairs with Kodama to create even a Yarok, the Desecrated level threat? I can't think of anything.
Can you walk us through a couple lines of play?JWK wrote: ↑3 years agoAs I've already stated, I have already seen Kodama in action with a couple of the original two-colored partners (Thrassios and something Dimir, I think, I don't recall because it was never cast). Adding blue into the equation gives Kodama a lot of protection and interactive capacity, plus G+B = incredible card draw, which equates to keeping the hand full, which allows Kodama to function in a more maximized capacity. Even if the other partner is never cast (which is what happened in both the games I was in), the value was pretty incredible. I could see Ishai also being strong, because adding flicker/bounce is another way to benefit a lot from Kodama's ability, plus white offers strong interactive and staxy options to the mix.
I'm not seeing any "value" from Kodama, it's purely a ramp commander - you play something and it triggers essentially ramp. If you think of it as Mana Reflection it's not too far off (although worse in some ways and better in others -- can trigger extra lands, but can't double >1 producers).
Kodama is nowhere near as good as the S tier partners -
And not anywhere near the A-tier commanders:
He's probably not even the strongest of the new partners. Overall I think he's weaker than Malcolm Keen-Eyed Navigator.
Do you think it's really that big of a deal that Kodama is of a power level with Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix or Reyhan, Last of the Abzan?
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In terms of cEDH I can't speak for that, but have every reason to agree knowing that you play your fair share.
In terms of casual EDH, I'm not sure I'm interested in playing the sort of deck that Kodama would be at the helm of. It's pretty stupid with Malcolm Keen-Eyed Navigator or anything else that generates treasure/tokens. While it's not going to be doing anything that green isn't already capable of, namely turbo-ramp and big stompies, my issue with the card is that it's just giving you everything you'd want on a platter. Why would you want to even consider brewing a deck where there's almost zero challenge in additions? You could almost put anything in it and have it work just fine.
Coincidentally this is my issue with most Simic commanders. That guild basically has no color pie identity for me anymore, every new commander is ramp+draw = Simic, here you go, win the game, combo off. It's just so boring, to me. I want to have to actually work for my win and think through lines of play to negotiate a boardstate, not just innately generate an amount of resource so obscene that the table can't keep up. Part of the fun of this format is having to pilot well to win, and just like any new Simic, the commander in question just doesn't need that, it's a cast and win commander.
My two cents. I think it's a fail, but I'm not clamoring for a ban or anything, I just think its a poorly designed card.
Imoti, Celebrant of Bounty looks hilarious, and potentially busted. I'm going to have to do some brewing, even if I don't end up building it. I'm increasingly conflicted with whether I want to jam all the cascaaaaade cards in my Animar deck.... or if I'm just going to make an entirely separate Averna, the Chaos Bloom deck.
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TheGildedGoose HONK HONK
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Would Averna, the Chaos Bloom trigger separately for each cascade on Apex Devastator ?
The Secret of Commander (EDH)
Sheldon-"The secret of this format is in not breaking it. "
It isn't a trigger, but yes, she will work for each of the four Cascades allowing for up to 4 lands to be put onto the battlefieldHermes_ wrote: ↑3 years agoWould Averna, the Chaos Bloom trigger separately for each cascade on Apex Devastator ?
Same, my random Golos deck will certainly end up with a substantially inflated cascade package, I'm wondering if I'll have enough cascade cards to justify including Averna, the Chaos Bloom though, that deck severely lacks good thematic ramp.Mookie wrote: ↑3 years agoImoti, Celebrant of Bounty looks hilarious, and potentially busted. I'm going to have to do some brewing, even if I don't end up building it. I'm increasingly conflicted with whether I want to jam all the cascaaaaade cards in my Animar deck.... or if I'm just going to make an entirely separate Averna, the Chaos Bloom deck.
Imoti is nuts in Maelstrom Wanderer. Not only am I casting MW 5-7 times per game, but I must have 20 cards that would get the cascade from Imoti.
Averna should be good in the deck too.
Imoti will also allow me to cascade off of cards cast with Etali, Primal Storm.
Averna should be good in the deck too.
Imoti will also allow me to cascade off of cards cast with Etali, Primal Storm.
The New World fell not to a sword but to a meme
Would Imoti, Celebrant of Bounty add cascades to card that already have cascade, like Maelstrom Wanderer and Apex Devastator
Last edited by Gashnaw 3 years ago, edited 1 time in total.
Translation, the most i got wasBeneTleilax wrote: ↑3 years ago
Oh hey it's a literal elfball. Not as good as Nath but it won't make everyone hate you like Nath. Opens up an aristocrats version of elves which looks cool.
Abomination of Llanowar and Vigilance
Can't figure out Nevinyrral, Urborg Tyrant. Is he spellslinger and/or wrath.dec? Do you wrath and blink him in response? That hexproof is so weird. I kinda love it.
Mirri, Cat Warrior counts as a Cat Warrior.
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Guardman A Dog's Dream of Man
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Yes. So if you control Imoti, Celebrant of Bounty, Apex Devastator would then have five instances of Cascade.Gashnaw wrote: ↑3 years agoWould Imoti, Celebrant of Bounty add cascades to card that already have cascade, like Maelstrom Wanderer and Apex Devastator
I am SO building maelstrom.Guardman wrote: ↑3 years agoYes. So if you control Imoti, Celebrant of Bounty, Apex Devastator would then have five instances of Cascade.Gashnaw wrote: ↑3 years agoWould Imoti, Celebrant of Bounty add cascades to card that already have cascade, like Maelstrom Wanderer and Apex Devastator
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Vigilance, menace, power and toughness is equal to number of your elves in play and in your graveyardGashnaw wrote: ↑3 years agoTranslation, the most i got wasBeneTleilax wrote: ↑3 years ago
Oh hey it's a literal elfball. Not as good as Nath but it won't make everyone hate you like Nath. Opens up an aristocrats version of elves which looks cool.
Abomination of Llanowar and Vigilance