I assume it's August 7 because that's when my Double Masters boxes and VIP boxes are available from my LGS.
*I'm so glad I decided to stay out of the Twin argument this time.
I assume it's August 7 because that's when my Double Masters boxes and VIP boxes are available from my LGS.
I don't play online, but I watch online. I refuse to watch Arena. I have done it a few times for players like Huey Jensen and Gabriel Nassif, but didn't like it at all. I watch MTGO all ... the ... time. I've also been tempted to start MTGO, tempted mostly by Cube and Modern. I would never join Arena, at least from what I hear from players all the time.th33l3x wrote: ↑3 years agoI think its super weird that the survival of modern depends on its implementation on Arena. Personally, I find the style of Arena annoying as hell. all those flashy animations... MTGO much more closely represents the core traits of mtg as a strategic card game. Don't all serious modern players just view Arena as a children's platform with flashy animations? Is the gameplay experience better/more practical than on MODO?
Ignoring me doesn't make anything I said wrong, but you do you. Astrolabe was just banned for being 4-ofs in 30ish% of the decks, while Veil is 2+ in almost 40+% of Modern. But, sure, it's fine, while Astrolabe was deemed too powerful Almost all the best decks and all combo decks in Modern are Green or playing Green for Veil. Yet there's no "real world example" that's showing us that it's (too) good?. The %$#%...cfusionpm wrote: ↑3 years agoI'm going to ignore everything else in this diatribe to focus on this. Because frankly, do we?
Like I understand that from a design standpoint it's obnoxious and does far more than it ever should. So... what deck is abusing it to the point of making it broken? What real world example is showing us this is too good? Why isn't Snoop or Storm splashing for it? Why isn't Ad Nauseum doing better having shoved a few in? What is actually showing this card is busted? Is there anything? Or just this hypothetical Twin monster that everyone is talking about and no one seems to show? Combined with our hatred of the stupid design of the card?
It's hardly a debate when everything you say is ignored or met with fallacies and sarcasm.
I think previews start this Monday and are going on for a week, so I assume 7th of August as a release date is correct.
I've long said that both have to go, but Veil is a higher priority (I even put it above Astrolabe, but alas). Of the two, T3feri is more "restrictive" in that it is 3 mana and 2 colors, but still a minor distinction, both shouldn't even exist.Ed06288 wrote: ↑3 years agoWhen playtesting traverse shadow against control, veil of sumner feels like my only way to win. 3 mana teferi is also really strong against me, bouncing my tarmogoyfs and stuff. I feel that if the opponent can have teferi, i should get to have veil of summer. maybe teferi and veil should only be banned together in a pair.
I think that what they said was Pioneer Masters would release. Not that it would be the entire format? Just that set, which would of course help to lay the groundwork for Pioneer but it doesn't fully move the format over.
You don't need it turn 1, you don't need to be on the play.
I have been saying this, exactly this, and loudly.....toast is right...ktkenshinx wrote: ↑3 years agoRe: Twin talk
Limited Twin talk is okay. Extensive discussions of testing, card choices, and lists is not, as it dominates the thread. Please take that elsewhere, such as viewtopic.php?f=5&t=16911.
Re: Pioneer Masters
I'll say it before and say it again. Modern is a dead duck if it does not come to Arena. If Pioneer is the format of choice for Arena and Wizards never releases any cards to support Modern, then Modern is on borrowed time through 2021 or maybe a bit later. That said, Wizards has released cards in Historic that are not even Pioneer legal. This suggests there is still long-term room for Modern or even other formats to take root on the platform. For instance, Historic might just be a better Pioneer in the long run. But if Wizards takes all that off the table and definitively says "Modern will never come to Arena: Pioneer will be that platform's nonrotating format" then we're toast.
I would happily go through point by point, but I'm trying to respect the requests of the moderators.
But you are missing the point entirely. It's not THAT Jace and SFM are fine, it's HOW people described them before their unbans. Their fire & brimstone comments of "obviously broken" "totally overpowered" "way too good" "destroy the format" and other things that mirror exactly what you are saying about Twin. Never mind that you are also saying you have this trove of data and proof that you repeatedly refuse to produce.
Honestly, I have other priorities in my life. I am now the primary caretaker for our toddler because it's summer and I'm not teaching (and lord knows whatever is going to happen in the Fall that I have to prepare for). What little free time I do have is often limited to mobile devices while watching her, or whatever I can accomplish during naps. The chunks of time I can get from coverage (usually by family member) are spent doing things I find much more fun: Often D&D, other board games, or Commander. I jump in Modern MTGO matches from time to time, but not nearly enough to put any meaningful amount of time or effort into exhaustive testing.th33l3x wrote: ↑3 years agoIn other words, no offence @cfusionpm, but why havent you built a temur Twin deck with Veil of Summer you as an experienced twin pilot think is optimal and run it through a gountlet of all the top tier decks. Get in 100 matches, write an article if it turns out you're right, get the ball rolling.
That has been said about every card that started off banned in the format. The thing is though, the difference is that Twin was in the format at one point and we have some evidence of what it does given the available answers. Bitterblossom, Ancestral Vision, JTMS, Stoneforge Mystic, these never got tested so no one had any experience to judge from other than Legacy, and they were surrounded by hyperbole which is common for this format.
I think Snoop and some other cards are one of their current designers really wanting to play around in Future Sight design space. That's why we've had all the variants on that lately. As someone who likes those effects, I'm enjoying it.Mapccu wrote: ↑3 years agoThis all seems purposeful to me and I'm not sure the designers have as much of a handle of mechanics as I think they do. F.I.R.E. Is a lot harder to pull off when you can't rely on any of your formulas of success. Top says bring in some power to generate hype to help product launch, design team pushes back some but ultimately has to figure it out, they do the best they can and we end up with crap like Conspicuous Snoop that has more relevant tribal text and stats than almost any other card in tribe in the last 25 years. We're literally seeing card after card if just ability soup and needless complexity on a card by card level. When a deck is full of 16 unique cards that all have 2-3 active or triggered abilities at various steps the game becomes less approachable.
Your arguments have been like the above, Point to a faceless mass of people that said that SFM/JtMS or whatever other unbanned card would break Modern, therefore our criticisms and reservations of both the playing and the list on videos such as the Goldfish one are invalid. That's it. Then you turn and ask us for proof that our criticisms or reservations are true, while you keep pointing on such heavily flawed videos as proof that Twin will be fine.cfusionpm wrote: ↑3 years agoBut you are missing the point entirely. It's not THAT Jace and SFM are fine, it's HOW people described them before their unbans. Their fire & brimstone comments of "obviously broken" "totally overpowered" "way too good" "destroy the format" and other things that mirror exactly what you are saying about Twin. Never mind that you are also saying you have this trove of data and proof that you repeatedly refuse to produce.
I've provided plenty of arguments that you choose to ignore and dismiss. And I would be happy to continue doing that. But I will not continue to bog down this thread refuting the unsupported drivel you continue to push. So either post your evidence, matches, lists, and results, or shut up about Twin indefinitely. Don't be a hypocrite by continuing the charade here.
We didn't dismiss it, we criticized it. Stop misrepresenting those with different opinions than you and you'll be fine. You haven't done that. Asking others to "put up or shut up" is ironic when you won't do that. Flawed evidence can be criticized on it "merits", we don't need to present detailed lists or matchup statistics to point to the glaring flaws in both playing and constructing the presented lists.cfusionpm wrote: ↑3 years agoIt just baffles me to no end how adamantly strong people are, yet how utterly impossible it is to get anything out of them other than their subjective words. And the one time I post a video of matches with constant commentary between players about their decks, construction, play choices, board states, and interactions, it's just outright dismissed because tiny elements clash with their mysterious data sets they refuse to share. So you know what? F**k it. I just don't care anymore. I just wish they would put up or shut up.
I do like them exploring CA with restrictions, but it's being heavily used recently. Mystic Forge is another example and while it's exciting, it really begins to turn off your opponents ability to swing a game back in their favor. I'm not just hoping you top deck a way to stabilize, I'm hoping the top 2-3 cards aren't going to bury me if I don't untap and answer your board when you stick these cards.Aazadan wrote: ↑3 years agoThat has been said about every card that started off banned in the format. The thing is though, the difference is that Twin was in the format at one point and we have some evidence of what it does given the available answers. Bitterblossom, Ancestral Vision, JTMS, Stoneforge Mystic, these never got tested so no one had any experience to judge from other than Legacy, and they were surrounded by hyperbole which is common for this format.
MInus some very, very good reasons which I don't think anyone has really provided there's really not a reason to make risky unbans. There's only a handful of bans that are highly likely to be safe and with format confidence at it's lowest point ever, unbans are not the place to take risks.
I think Snoop and some other cards are one of their current designers really wanting to play around in Future Sight design space. That's why we've had all the variants on that lately. As someone who likes those effects, I'm enjoying it.Mapccu wrote: ↑3 years agoThis all seems purposeful to me and I'm not sure the designers have as much of a handle of mechanics as I think they do. F.I.R.E. Is a lot harder to pull off when you can't rely on any of your formulas of success. Top says bring in some power to generate hype to help product launch, design team pushes back some but ultimately has to figure it out, they do the best they can and we end up with crap like Conspicuous Snoop that has more relevant tribal text and stats than almost any other card in tribe in the last 25 years. We're literally seeing card after card if just ability soup and needless complexity on a card by card level. When a deck is full of 16 unique cards that all have 2-3 active or triggered abilities at various steps the game becomes less approachable.
No you didn't. Your point boiled down to "You're wrong, I'm right, and just trust me on it. I don't need to prove why."
I asked politely numerous times. I said that because I am sick and tired of you droning on endlessly about how much vast experience you have, yet you refuse to even show the slightest bit of information about that experience. Lists? Matchups? Win rates? Recorded matches? Nothing. So why should anyone believe anything you have to say? Because it *feels* true?
Why? What combo deck is using it today? And is it too good there?
I think it's hard to argue this.
Let us know how that goes. I am interested. I live in California and we are not going to see paper play again until the end of September at the very minimum. I treasured the 3 weeks of paper play that we had recently.Ed06288 wrote: ↑3 years agoIt's purely hypothetical whether splinter twin becomes unbanned in the future. May as well just find another deck you enjoy and play that. A local shop near me is having tournaments and attendance is good and I'm just having fun with the game at the moment. Not worried about grinding grand prix or regionals or anything else. Format should be a little better with astrolabe gone. EDH is also taking off, I'm gonna buy a pre-made deck and have fun losing with it lol.
That's basically the grounds for why Lattice was banned, so I don't see why Wizards can't ban another card for that reason.