[Primer] Esper Draw-Go Control

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aklepatzky
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Post by aklepatzky » 4 years ago

Timely in the main helps g1 against burn as well as against other creature heavy aggro decks and maybe even jund

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A Cute Bunny
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Post by A Cute Bunny » 4 years ago

GenesisEffect80 wrote:
4 years ago
I am amazed at all of these writeups where you guys remember what was in your opponents' hands. I don't have that kind of memory, but I'll just add that Drown in the Loch is the truth! That card did so much work for me last night it was crazy. I never felt the need to build in discard beyond Thoughtseize. Between Fetch and all the GY interaction, there's no need to jam Thought Scour into this deck. Played against Scapeshift and countered one Primeval Titan and destroyed another. That plus Unmoored Ego and we own that deck. Also punished a Heartless Summoning combo deck.

The one deck I had a lot of trouble with was a Rakdos build that abused Unearth with a bunch of annoying 3-drops, including Fulminator Mage. I really missed the Kaya's Guiles that I pulled completely out of the 75. I almost won the match against him if not for him top-decking a Fulminator the turn before I could drop my 6th land to cast Lattice with Karn already on the battlefield. The combo did win me two other games though, so I will continue to abuse it.

Timely Reinforcements felt like a bad card, like it doesn't help us stabilize in a match-specific way.

After seeing how much mileage my Rakdos opponent was getting out of Unearth, I couldn't help but wonder if there's a midrange Esper build out there that does something similar with Snaps, Quellers, Plague Engineers, etc, and runs a full playset of Teferi, Time Raveler...
Well, I take notes. Mostly little ones on what I am playing, how many times people mulled. If there was any flooding or mana screw on either side. What cards I see in their hand. If I did or didn't see a card like Kaya's Guile against Burn and if either side made a big misplay. I have played 6 main deck discard spells since T3feri came out. It's good but it is really unforgiving.

Dropping guile from the 75 can't be right. It is one of the better utility cards in the deck and shouldn't play any less then 2 IMO. Karn is indeed a sweet combo, getting the right cards from the side is a big deal though. Like sometimes it's right to take Liquimetal coating over Lattice to shut down a card then kill some lands or if you get mana screwed its a mini lattice. Sometimes you need a threat or removal more then trying to win with lattice. I know lattice is usually the most tempting grab but I usually only get it when I guaranteed can play it the next turn and it will have the impact I am looking for.

Yeah Timely is rough, tapping out sorcery speed always is difficult for control because players feel like they can jam anything right after you do. I think timely is almost required against burn though so its a tough call.

Unearth is meh. People played it in Esper Mentor but the deck was very very very linear and threat light. Not worth playing IMO.

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Post by MashedPotato » 4 years ago

A Cute Bunny wrote:
4 years ago
Dropping guile from the 75 can't be right. It is one of the better utility cards in the deck and shouldn't play any less then 2 IMO.
I can't even remember how many times this card has saved me. Either from having the fetch + shock in something and the life keep me going with a token to block for that turn. Options are my favourite part about playing Esper, every card that costs more than 3 (except drown) does more than two things.
A Cute Bunny wrote:
4 years ago
Yeah Timely is rough, tapping out sorcery speed always is difficult for control because players feel like they can jam anything right after you do. I think timely is almost required against burn though so its a tough call.
aklepatzky wrote:
4 years ago
Timely in the main helps g1 against burn as well as against other creature heavy aggro decks and maybe even jund
I don't run timely in my main, prefer having a full suite of counters and removal, then side it in over board wipes in most cases. I don't mind playing the tapped out games in a lot of instances. By the time im tapping its my end game and im man land beat down. I am looking to playtest a Damping Sphere against a few friends to see how playing tapped out works out against the faster decks, yes it will sometimes cost myself more in some cases, but having the opponent pay 2 or 3 for a lighting bolt, slows them down.
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Post by aklepatzky » 4 years ago

What do you think about monastery mentor as a 1/2 of in the side against jund control tron etc?

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Post by MashedPotato » 4 years ago

aklepatzky wrote:
4 years ago
What do you think about monastery mentor as a 1/2 of in the side against jund control tron etc?
The prowess triggers usually won't happen on our turn imo. Unless its removal to clear the way. I feel Mentor slots in better into a different kind of Esper deck, rather than the control variant
I usually keep a Lyra in the sideboard, bit more utility. Or if im feeling a bit different before a night of magic, drop a Geist of Saint Traft, which isn't as good.
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Post by Amalek0 » 4 years ago

A lot of y'all seem laser-focused on teferi, time raveler.

I think that focus is misguided. In modern, the card is not actually that good.

It's incredibly powerfully hateful against our deck and in our deck.

But, against the format writ large, it's generally a bounce/draw effect with some flavor text. The truth is, while many decks in modern *can* operate at instant speed, most have no actual need to do so.

You'll get more milage by recognizing that it's only good against 8-10% of the format, the control decks, or to enhance that same 8-10%.

In terms of slots, that merits sideboard or singleton consideration.

The problem is that it always feels incredibly good when it's out because it's hard to consider the opportunity cost in the moment, and it always gets cast as a 3 mana sorcery speed cantrip at minimum, so it's hard for people to be as objective about it as, say, spell snare.

Yes, it's a miserable card that we have a hard time getting off the table. It also doesn't really do anything and can mostly be ignored in favor of mind-rotting your opponent out of the game.

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Post by GenesisEffect80 » 4 years ago

A Cute Bunny wrote:
4 years ago
Well, I take notes. Mostly little ones on what I am playing, how many times people mulled. If there was any flooding or mana screw on either side. What cards I see in their hand. If I did or didn't see a card like Kaya's Guile against Burn and if either side made a big misplay. I have played 6 main deck discard spells since T3feri came out. It's good but it is really unforgiving.

Dropping guile from the 75 can't be right. It is one of the better utility cards in the deck and shouldn't play any less then 2 IMO. Karn is indeed a sweet combo, getting the right cards from the side is a big deal though. Like sometimes it's right to take Liquimetal coating over Lattice to shut down a card then kill some lands or if you get mana screwed its a mini lattice. Sometimes you need a threat or removal more then trying to win with lattice. I know lattice is usually the most tempting grab but I usually only get it when I guaranteed can play it the next turn and it will have the impact I am looking for.

Yeah Timely is rough, tapping out sorcery speed always is difficult for control because players feel like they can jam anything right after you do. I think timely is almost required against burn though so its a tough call.

Unearth is meh. People played it in Esper Mentor but the deck was very very very linear and threat light. Not worth playing IMO.
I have Guile back in the board. I like that over Timely Reinforcements. I'm interested in what Liquimetal coating can do and yeah, I need more tricks to grab with Karn besides Lattice. This may seem like sacrilege, but I was not impressed at all with Jace last night. He's done good work in the past against inferior decks, but his +2 actually screwed me in one game, his other modes were not as helpful as I had hoped, and I never got close to his ultimate. I am extremely tempted to go down to 1 Planeswalker in the 75, Karn. I also did not get much out of Plague Engineer. Too soon to say if I think that's a good card against my local meta.

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Post by A Cute Bunny » 4 years ago

GenesisEffect80 wrote:
4 years ago
I have Guile back in the board. I like that over Timely Reinforcements. I'm interested in what Liquimetal coating can do and yeah, I need more tricks to grab with Karn besides Lattice. This may seem like sacrilege, but I was not impressed at all with Jace last night. He's done good work in the past against inferior decks, but his +2 actually screwed me in one game, his other modes were not as helpful as I had hoped, and I never got close to his ultimate. I am extremely tempted to go down to 1 Planeswalker in the 75, Karn. I also did not get much out of Plague Engineer. Too soon to say if I think that's a good card against my local meta.
Yeah, Guile is too good to pass up on. It gets around a ton of stuff like Hexproof and even Veil of summer while also having other functionality with the exile and life gain and even the 1/1 spirit comes up a lot. There are many times I have won games because I had guile in the main and I have never actually sided it out. The card is good and I like seeing it but I don't usually want multiples aside from burn which is why I main 2. I see it enough but not too much.

The Karn board is huge too, but I wouldn't run less then 2 Karn. You want to see it frequently enough to get value out of having less then a full side board. Right now I am personally on 1 Jace 1 T5f 2 Karn and 2 T3f and it feels great. Getting to Ult Jace or T5f is difficult because you already have to be winning the game to get to that point where Karn gets you either an answer or a win condition which is nice. I wasn't sure at first when I started trying the list but Karn is actually pretty close to what Esper wants.

For the Karn targets I have 1 Liquimetal Coating and 1 Lattice, both of those are required IMO and then 1 EE which is pretty mandatory as well but probably could play without. Witchbane orb is great against burn but it can be a bit slow, it 100% can't be your only side for burn but grabbing it is a huge deal. Also helps with Jund discard or Storm and such as long as they don't bounce it. Then utility stuff like Damping Sphere, Tormod's Crypt and Cataclysmic Gearhulk are up for contention.

Plague is good against the right decks, not main deck worthy but 1-2 in the side can go a long way.

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Post by aklepatzky » 4 years ago

MashedPotato wrote:
4 years ago
aklepatzky wrote:
4 years ago
What do you think about monastery mentor as a 1/2 of in the side against jund control tron etc?
The prowess triggers usually won't happen on our turn imo. Unless its removal to clear the way. I feel Mentor slots in better into a different kind of Esper deck, rather than the control variant
I usually keep a Lyra in the sideboard, bit more utility. Or if im feeling a bit different before a night of magic, drop a Geist of Saint Traft, which isn't as good.
Ive been wanting to replace kalitas for a bit now. Against burn it has definitely won games on the spot but i think i prefer to wait a turn longer in that mu if that gives me the flexibility to have a better treat against aggro or a faster clock against other decks with lyra

With regards to mentor it might be true that the triggers would happen during out opp turn and we would be mostly hitting with a 2/2 but the point is it lets us go wide and every opt counter removal etc becomes at least an additional treat

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Post by aklepatzky » 4 years ago


Im unsure what to add in the sb for the remaining 3 spots. The maybe board is:

Third guile, a kalitas, a couple of mentors, a lyra, brutality, second board wipe, second veto. What do you think?

Also: is the singleton field of ruin worth it in the main or id be better of with 2nd glacial fortress/blast zone? Maybe even 2nd colonnade? Is it crazy to run more copies of for in the side? I mean i really would like to play with 3 for cause theres tron valakut and amulet but i feel its gonna be clunky although ive seen some lists run 3 main

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Post by MashedPotato » 4 years ago

I think Field of Ruin isn't as useful at this stage in the overall meta at the moment, so I have cut mine out entirely. At the moment, I much prefer running clean mana that gives me the colours I need rather than a generic colour, because early on if i need X or Y colour, Field doesn't help me in getting what responses I need out until turn 4 onwards. In short, I like clean mana.

The sideboard you choose will need to reflect the meta at where you play more so than anything else. I have my sideboard set as very much a toolbox for alt win cons and specific threat counters as my meta is always a mess with bit of this and that. Although my main is almost identical to yours, with almost one more of this and one less of that.

Overall, I think Esper is in a better spot than UW control at the moment (the current meta stats don't reflect it), better tools and curve dare I say to deal with what is currently doing the rounds
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Post by Jeremy4050 » 4 years ago

Amalek0 wrote:
4 years ago
A lot of y'all seem laser-focused on teferi, time raveler.

I think that focus is misguided. In modern, the card is not actually that good.

It's incredibly powerfully hateful against our deck and in our deck.

But, against the format writ large, it's generally a bounce/draw effect with some flavor text. The truth is, while many decks in modern *can* operate at instant speed, most have no actual need to do so.

You'll get more milage by recognizing that it's only good against 8-10% of the format, the control decks, or to enhance that same 8-10%.

In terms of slots, that merits sideboard or singleton consideration.

The problem is that it always feels incredibly good when it's out because it's hard to consider the opportunity cost in the moment, and it always gets cast as a 3 mana sorcery speed cantrip at minimum, so it's hard for people to be as objective about it as, say, spell snare.

Yes, it's a miserable card that we have a hard time getting off the table. It also doesn't really do anything and can mostly be ignored in favor of mind-rotting your opponent out of the game.
I can get behind the notion that T3feri may be a little over-hyped, but to say he's not that good in modern is just way off base imo. In essence, he's fantastic against control and combo, just for the sorc speed requirement alone. That's 2/3 of the archetypes in modern (not percentage-wise, but just more or less the 3 archetypes modern has).

As diverse as the modern meta is, there are lots of cards that are incidental hits in decks; while not being a lynch pin to victory against jund, disabling bbe is certainly worthwhile, and making all of their instants into sorceries allows us to better utilize the flash nature of our own deck. Another example is paradoxical outcome from the new emry decks; t3feri doesn't shut down the deck, but it makes countering their threats much more manageable when they can't cast outcome end of our turn or in response to a charm.

If your meta is full of burn and aggro, then yeah he's not really going to be pulling as much weight, but 8-10% of the format? That seems like such an arbitrary number. Mtgtop8 has UW control as 4% of the meta and DS as 6%, and I'd consider t3feri good against both of those decks. Making a deck play at sorcery speed may not make the deck immediately lose, but it gives us a huge advantage in insuring all our counters are hits.

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Post by GenesisEffect80 » 4 years ago

MashedPotato wrote:
4 years ago
I think Field of Ruin isn't as useful at this stage in the overall meta at the moment, so I have cut mine out entirely. At the moment, I much prefer running clean mana that gives me the colours I need rather than a generic colour, because early on if i need X or Y colour, Field doesn't help me in getting what responses I need out until turn 4 onwards. In short, I like clean mana.
I am adding Castle Locthwain in place of Field of Ruin. I feel like we need more durable late-game card advantage, which probably seems silly if you're playing 8Charm but I don't play Archmage's Charm. There were a couple games last week where I was digging for a wincon and they had settled to the bottom. Also putting Nihil Spellbomb back into the board for a Karn target.

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Post by TheAnnihilator » 4 years ago

GenesisEffect80 wrote:
4 years ago
MashedPotato wrote:
4 years ago
I think Field of Ruin isn't as useful at this stage in the overall meta at the moment, so I have cut mine out entirely. At the moment, I much prefer running clean mana that gives me the colours I need rather than a generic colour, because early on if i need X or Y colour, Field doesn't help me in getting what responses I need out until turn 4 onwards. In short, I like clean mana.
I am adding Castle Locthwain in place of Field of Ruin. I feel like we need more durable late-game card advantage, which probably seems silly if you're playing 8Charm but I don't play Archmage's Charm. There were a couple games last week where I was digging for a wincon and they had settled to the bottom. Also putting Nihil Spellbomb back into the board for a Karn target.
Not a fan of Castle Locthwain. I'd look into Search for Azcanta first, or play some extra card advantage like Archmage's Charm as you mentioned, Hieroglyphic Illumination, Think Twice (my personal favorite), more copies of Jace, the Mind Sculptor/Teferi, Hero of Dominaria (depending on how many you play, of course), or even a Sphinx's Revelation or two.

Another option is to play more wincons, like a 3rd Tar Pit, or the 4th/5th manlands, a White Sun's Zenith or Secure the Wastes, an Elspeth, Sun's Champion, etc.

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Post by TheAnnihilator » 4 years ago

Amalek0 wrote:
4 years ago
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A lot of y'all seem laser-focused on teferi, time raveler.

I think that focus is misguided. In modern, the card is not actually that good.

It's incredibly powerfully hateful against our deck and in our deck.

But, against the format writ large, it's generally a bounce/draw effect with some flavor text. The truth is, while many decks in modern *can* operate at instant speed, most have no actual need to do so.

You'll get more milage by recognizing that it's only good against 8-10% of the format, the control decks, or to enhance that same 8-10%.

In terms of slots, that merits sideboard or singleton consideration.

The problem is that it always feels incredibly good when it's out because it's hard to consider the opportunity cost in the moment, and it always gets cast as a 3 mana sorcery speed cantrip at minimum, so it's hard for people to be as objective about it as, say, spell snare.

Yes, it's a miserable card that we have a hard time getting off the table. It also doesn't really do anything and can mostly be ignored in favor of mind-rotting your opponent out of the game.
I agree it's not so insanely good that you HAVE to run it, but I think you're seriously underestimating what T3feri does for Esper. At its floor, he allows for draw-step ECharms without risk of instants being cast in response, he prevents pretty much all interaction with our manlands (Tar Pit being particularly good in combination), he makes our big plays uncounterable, etc. In most matchups, he's a tempo play that then demands a few points of damage to kill him or his effects on the game start compounding.

He's exceptionally good against Control and Combo, but he's almost never bad, with Burn being the one real exception. He even hoses Veil of Summer, which is definitely a problematic card.

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Post by aklepatzky » 4 years ago

With regards to this list im going to try this tuesday (I made a few changes in the main and sb: replaced damnation with supreme veredict and removed the single copy of FoR for the 2nd copy of Colonnade. In the side I added Lyra and Kalitas with one free slot yet)

I want your opinions on my sb plan against some common mus (what am I adding that I shouldnt or viceversa)

-Jund:
+2 Celestial Purge
+1 Spell Snare
+1 Dovin's Veto
+1 Kalitas, Traitor of Geth
-2 Force of Negation
-2 Thoughtseize
-1 Logic Knot (maybe keep 1 TS and remove both LK?)

-G Tron:
+1 Vendilion Clique
+1 Ceremonious Rejection
+2 Disdainful Stroke
+1 Dovin's Veto
+2 Surgical Extraction
+1 Unmoored Ego
+1 Lyra, Dawnbringer
-3 Fatal Push
-2 Drown in the Loch
-2 Kaya's Guile
-1 Spell Snare
-1 Supreme Veredict

-Amulet Titan:
+2 Disdainful Stroke
+2 Surgical Extraction
+1 Unmoored Ego
+1 Vendilion Clique
+1 Dovin's Veto
-3 Fatal Push
-1 Spell Snare (only hits OuAT so its not worth it I guess?)
-1 Supreme Veredict (even though they play Field of the Dead if you need this youre probably screwed anyways?)
-2 Drown in the Loch

-E tron:
+1 Vendilion Clique
+1 Ceremonious Rejection
+2 Disdainful Stroke
+2 Surgical Extraction
+1 Unmoored Ego
+1 Lyra, Dawnbringer
-3 Fatal Push
-2 Drown in the Loch
-1 Spell Snare
-2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

-Burn:
+1 Timely Reinforcements
+1 Dovin's Veto
+1 Spell Snare
+1 Kalitas, Traitor of Geth
+1 Lyra Dawnbringer
-2 Thoughtseize
-1 Supreme Veredict
-1 Teferi, Hero of Dominaria
-1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

-Valakut:
+1 Vendilion Clique
+2 Disdainful Stroke
+1 Dovin's Veto
+2 Surgical Extraction
+1 Unmoored Ego
+1 Lyra, Dawnbringer
-3 Fatal Push
-1 Drown in the Loch
-3 Path to Exile
-1 Supreme Veredict

-Urza Ascendacy:
+2 Disdainful Stroke
+2 Surgical Extraction
+1 Unmoored Ego
+1 Vendilion Clique
-1 Spell Snare
-1 Supreme Veredict
-1 Teferi, Hero of Dominaria
-3 Fatal Push
Last edited by aklepatzky 4 years ago, edited 2 times in total.

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Post by GenesisEffect80 » 4 years ago

aklepatzky wrote:
4 years ago
With regards to this list im going to try this tuesday (I made a few changes in the main and sb: replaced damnation with supreme veredict and removed the single copy of FoR for the 2nd copy of Colonnade. In the side I added Lyra and Kalitas with one free slot yet)
My recommendation based on my local meta is to move Supreme Verdict into the board and find a way to go to a full playset of Drown in the Loch main. That card is the truth and the way. You're playing Thoughtseize and with fetch you don't need anything else to have it live by T2. There is still a ton of GY interaction in Modern - clever GY strategies may be even better now after the Faithless Looting ban because the meta has moved so far in the opposite direction that people are not sideboarding for it. I learned my lesson last week: we need Kaya's Guile and Drown is just so good. As soon as they fetch, or you Seize, Kill, or Counter anything, their GY count is going up and Drown scales all game - it hits early threats like Bob and late game wincons like Prime Time all the same.

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Post by A Cute Bunny » 4 years ago

GenesisEffect80 wrote:
4 years ago
I am adding Castle Locthwain in place of Field of Ruin. I feel like we need more durable late-game card advantage, which probably seems silly if you're playing 8Charm but I don't play Archmage's Charm. There were a couple games last week where I was digging for a wincon and they had settled to the bottom. Also putting Nihil Spellbomb back into the board for a Karn target.
I think Azcanta is far better then the castles. Spellbomb is nice but Tormonds crypt is better most of the time since its 0 mana and you can play it on 4.

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Post by GenesisEffect80 » 4 years ago

A Cute Bunny wrote:
4 years ago
I think Azcanta is far better then the castles. Spellbomb is nice but Tormonds crypt is better most of the time since its 0 mana and you can play it on 4.
We can agree to diasagree. The Castles drawback is minimal, imo, and it seems like the black one was made with Esper Draw-Go in mind. Anyway, I'm going to try it out. I'm also running a pair of Temple of Deceit. Tinkering...

No arguing that Tormod's Crypt is faster, but we're also running Guile so imo the cantrip is the better value and mainboard game 2 if necessary.

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Post by MashedPotato » 4 years ago

Had an awful week at FNM.

Simic Urza was rampant and so was Burn (but at least I can keep up with Burn better)
Urza itself could be managed nicely, if played well, but with Oko in the mix, the speed is far to quick. If dropping a turn 2 Oko into whatever they want basically turned me off this week.

Played against some Burn which was fun and came across someone playing Jund and Grixis Shadow, which we all enjoyed a lot, since Control isn't big at our LGS (to Esper extent) they appreciated playing something different to sharpen their skills and I really like DS variants.

Went in with a fairly standard list with Loch as below

Overall, looking to build a Pauper deck to mix it up at the moment, but content with my list, but open to any suggestions to the Mainboard
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Post by Jizard » 4 years ago

Also came up against T2 Oko.................... utterly miserable.

Need some new answers. Either Mystical Dispute for 1 CMC counter or perhaps the discard package.
What do ppl think?

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Post by A Cute Bunny » 4 years ago

Jizard wrote:
4 years ago
Also came up against T2 Oko.................... utterly miserable.

Need some new answers. Either Mystical Dispute for 1 CMC counter or perhaps the discard package.
What do ppl think?
Discard feels bad. The number of Veils is going up and up and it destroys discard.

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Post by MashedPotato » 4 years ago

Jizard wrote:
4 years ago
Need some new answers. Either Mystical Dispute for 1 CMC counter or perhaps the discard package.
What do ppl think?
Discard feels like a different package for us. I can't remember who it was, but someone in here does run heavier discard suite
Mystical is to situational imo, for 3 mana if its not targetting blue spell its expensive over many other spells.
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Post by aklepatzky » 4 years ago


Went 3-1 today at my LGS with this list. Beat Jund (2-1) Mono g Tron (2-1) Jund (2-1) and lost to a weird midrange sultai list with Oko, Queller, T3feri, BoP, hierarch, leak among its cards..

-Mana base feels really solid. Not missing FoR and was able to fetch for an untapped Mystic Sanctuary most of the times I wanted to.
-I will go down to 24 lands trimming a Drowned Catacomb once I get my second copy of Supreme Veredict, I think its necessary to assure creature heavy mus and specially against etron.
-Lyra stole 2 games against Jund by herself tonight. Second time playing her in the side. First time was on friday where she instantly won me a game against boros burn.
-Unsure if I want a heavy discard package in the main along with 2 T3feri since the combination seems awesome. Theres a friend at my LGS who also has a esper control deck though he almost always plays Jund and hes running 4-5 discard spells main and trimmed 1 push 1 Jace 1 opt 1 charm from my list to fit them. Thoughts?
-Drown felt AMAZING when I played straight UB control/Faeries, but now that I'm on Esper Control 2 Drown has felt like the sweet spot. Never felt like I wanted more.
The most played decks at my LGS are (virtually in order) Jund, (E)Tron, Valakut, Urza and Control. With that in mind:
-I'm unsure if I want another copy of Stony in the side. Its such a high impact card that having 2 copies feels better than a single one that you arent that likely to draw.
-Thoughts on adding Gideon, Ally Zendikar/Plague Engineer ?

Any general thoughts about my list are welcome.

GenesisEffect80
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Joined: 4 years ago
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Post by GenesisEffect80 » 4 years ago

Jizard wrote:
4 years ago
Also came up against T2 Oko.................... utterly miserable.

Need some new answers. Either Mystical Dispute for 1 CMC counter or perhaps the discard package.
What do ppl think?
Unmoored Ego post board... I think that between Force of Negation and Thoughtseize, and perhaps Spell Snare, if we know their play is T2 Oko we should be more than ready for it. T1 Push the bird with FoN in hand, or Thoughtseize or hold up U on the draw for Snare.

Having stated that, I haven't played against it yet, and there is plenty of threat in that deck.

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