I did call this storm but technically its more storm like than actually running any storm cards. The concept is to spam low cost enchantments while drawing multiple cards per cast ideally from playing them out. Lots of the payoffs in this deck reward me for casting spells which might pump up my crew.

• Buffs - Eidolon of Countless Battles, Heliod, Sun-Crowned (plus commander), Archangel of Thune (plus commander), Celestial Ancient, Ethereal Armor, All That Glitters, Oath of the Ancient Wood, and Primeval Bounty can all pump up the jam when I cast a bunch of enchantments.
• Tokens - Monastery Mentor, Ajani's Chosen, Archon of Sun's Grace, and Sigil of the Empty Throne can all go wide for me.
• Disruption - Cursed Totem, Null Rod, Torpor Orb, Damping Matrix, Heliod's Punishment, Kenrith's Transformation, Lignify, Reprobation, Seal of Cleansing, Seal of Primordium, Soul Tithe, Stony Silence, Suppression Field, Aura of Silence, Aura Shards, Curse of Exhaustion, and Elspeth Conquers Death. Given the option to cantrip with the enchantments a lot of them become a lot more appealing. Once I opted to go artifact light I inserted some artifact hate into the mix as well.

This gives me some go wide and some go tall tactics I can all mix in. I added a bunch of disruption and ramp on top of most of the ways I could think of to push a bunch of card draw through. I stuck to the ramp enchantments which ideally let me chain more draw together and it let me throw in a little bit of artifact and creature hate in my artifacts section as well.

Drawing cards while ramping and disrupting opponents tends to be a fairly good strategy. I guess we will see how it goes.

Let us know if you like this one more than Sram.

I've ended a lot of games from stacking Lifelink and Spirit Link on a huge Kor Spiritdancer or Sram + Aetherflux Reservoir.

I like the all-in nature of Sram, maybe this would be even better.

umtiger wrote: ↑

2 years ago

Let us know if you like this one more than Sram.

I've ended a lot of games from stacking Lifelink and Spirit Link on a huge Kor Spiritdancer or Sram + Aetherflux Reservoir.

I like the all-in nature of Sram, maybe this would be even better.

Will do. I went back and forth on if I wanted to be more aggressive or more controlling with what I was doing but I felt like going more controlling played better to the concept since I felt like a lot of the high powered cards already can overpower opponents easily. Going more all in involved more of cheap enchantments with evasion like Angelic Gift and Setessan Training and possibly some protection effects.

I haven't done any testing or anything but I felt a touch more comfortable going the direction of a little more control. I guess we will see how that goes.

I feel like Stasis Snare and Cast Out are deceptively powerful in these decks. You can have a little more reaction and also often steal an extra card before someone removes your commander at times. I generally put them in every enchantress deck and am always happy to see them.

pokken wrote: ↑

2 years ago

I feel like Stasis Snare and Cast Out are deceptively powerful in these decks. You can have a little more reaction and also often steal an extra card before someone removes your commander at times. I generally put them in every enchantress deck and am always happy to see them.

I guess my concern is that this deck is going to move real fast and use up a lot of mana. I have never been super fond of Oblivion Ring effects in their temporary solutions but I tend to play those a bit when I am playing more of a draw go type of deck. I guess my concern offhand is more that I don't really plan to be keeping mana up for those sort of things.

I could possibly see replacing some of the Beast Within / Generous Gift effects that I included just in case with them. I was more just thinking how I don't plan to be all that responsive with this type of deck instead likely burning through all of my mana each turns when I can.

I also realized that I overlooked Dawn's Reflection and Market Festival to name a few cards I probably will be looking for some space for. I probably need to give everything a second look and figure out how those will make it in. I suspect that at a minimum they will replace some of the three mana ramp land auras that just give me one more mana assuming they don't replace something else.

I think you'll like being able to draw four cards when you remove something and can just deal with it being temp. I'd cut gift and beast within for them and never look back. Theme power. They pump sanctum and nykthos too. And trigger sigil at instant speed.

A weird piece of tech I always got a ton of looks at in enchantress was elemental resonance..it's a bit high risk but often will outperform land auras if you plop it on something 3 cmc or greater. I used to throw it on sigarda tho so fewer targets in this deck.

The only real question I have is would this be better than Tuvasa?

Have you considered Calix, Destiny's Hand? I think you enchantment density is more than high enough to make good use of him. Unless Curse of Exhaustion is a meta call, that is where I would slot him in.

ElevatorDreams wrote: ↑

2 years ago

The only real question I have is would this be better than Tuvasa?

The once a turn rider is much worse as it the 3 cmc

Need for blue dilutes nykthos as well.

ElevatorDreams wrote: ↑

2 years ago

The only real question I have is would this be better than Tuvasa?

Tuvusa feels more Voltron-y to me than enchantress-y.

Drawing more cards > extra color + pump

ElevatorDreams wrote: ↑

2 years ago

The only real question I have is would this be better than Tuvasa?

Tuvasa the Sunlit also only triggers for the first enchantment cast in a turn whereas Sythis, Harvest's Hand allows it for each. Its important in that I plan to chain cast a bunch of enchantments rather than casting a few bigger ones.

Gamazson wrote: ↑

2 years ago

Have you considered Calix, Destiny's Hand? I think you enchantment density is more than high enough to make good use of him. Unless Curse of Exhaustion is a meta call, that is where I would slot him in.

It was in my list but I realized that in almost every case I just wanted another enchantress over him. His O Ring effect is ok but my plan is really to chain enchantments so I felt like I would be forced to defend him and I have very little flying nor do I have all that great of go wide defenses. When the enchantresses go well I should draw 2-4 cards in a turn by casting enchantments which is just so much higher than what he can do for me plus the whole defense issue.

I decided that rather than including him I would mostly rather just have another creature tutor and he ended up getting cut. Most of my enchantments have redundancy to them so I really just need quantity rather than selection.

pokken wrote: ↑

2 years ago

ElevatorDreams wrote: ↑

2 years ago

The only real question I have is would this be better than Tuvasa?

The once a turn rider is much worse as it the 3 cmc

Need for blue dilutes nykthos as well.

The once a turn was the biggest factor. It forces you to try to pick up flash or just play mid sized enchantments over chaining them. Lots of my concepts came on the back of chaining a bunch of stuff so it makes a lot more sense to stick with my current commander.

umtiger wrote: ↑

2 years ago

ElevatorDreams wrote: ↑

2 years ago

The only real question I have is would this be better than Tuvasa?

Tuvusa feels more Voltron-y to me than enchantress-y.

Drawing more cards > extra color + pump

I agree.

---

I see I overlooked a bunch of the land enchantments and I probably need to take another pass at variations of O rings in for the beast within stuffs. I will take another look at updating the list maybe tomorrow. While some of the cost reduction creatures for enchantments might be nice I will likely cut them for more of the land auras as ramp + draw together sound great.

You're gonna want to to find space for arbor elf and satyr untapper bro probably with the land auras in bunches. The latter is also great with sanctum and nykthos ofc.

For what its worth Flickering Ward and Whip Silk are fantastic ways to dump mana and draw up in Sythis. Not even a bad top deck, with Ward having the added utility of getting any pumped up creature through some blockers.

I'm swapping my Sram over to Sythis. I haven't got a list yet but I'm fiddling round at the moment and I'm glad to see yours to grab some ideas. I'm planning on leaning into the auras as much has possible to increase the positive of getting an additional 2 enchantress effects for 2 mana (Sram and Kor Spiritdancer).

I've got a Golos pillow fort / stax enchantment deck which seems a bit more of a controlling version (like what you are going for here). I haven't updated it in a while, and the mana base is a bit wobbly in order to try and accomodate non-basic hate into the deck, but here is the list if you would like to look at it for some of the removal options that Pokken was suggesting, amongst other things (all my decks are 'Private', so I'm not sure if you will be able to see it):
https://archidekt.com/decks/529724#5_Colour_Enchantress

It would be interesting to see how you balance the additional aura ramp effects and if they are worth the effect once you get over CMC3 (even if you do get 2 mana back rather than 3). I'm not sure if they are, nor if they are worth replacing the 'medallion-style' creatures (although I noticed your post in your Sram deck about them not really pulling their weight) but I'd be interested to see you testing.

I can get on board with the previous suggestion of the 'return to your hand' enchantments, especially with Serra's Sanctum and Nykthos available.

Here are some other card suggestions (but, no suggested cuts):
Season of Growth ; Retether as another source of card draw and filtering, as well as an additional replenish effect.

Nature's chosen ; rancor ; Instill Energy can provide some interesting utility, although what that utility might be in your build I'm unsure.

Garruk, Wildspeaker or the aforementioned land untappers mentioned by Pokken are a good idea. Garruk can be mana neutral as he essentially uncaps with haste.

You have a fair amount of blockers, so Luminarch Ascension might be a worthy token maker.

Have you considered Crop Rotation instead of Pir's Whim?

There is also Myth Realized which is a huge 1 mana beater that dodges sorcery removal and basically cantrips in the late game. As an alternative to Primeval Bounty, there is Nylea's Colossus.

Heavenly Blademaster can also serve as a large group boost like Archangel of Thune.

pokken wrote: ↑

2 years ago

You're gonna want to to find space for arbor elf and satyr untapper bro probably with the land auras in bunches. The latter is also great with sanctum and nykthos ofc.

I get the appeal of the idea but its likely that I would be better served with Earthcraft. I don't actually plan to go down any of these avenues but that is mostly because I don't like mana dorks and they are off theme / don't draw me cards. My ramp count is already going to be super high but I want ones that can be utilized immediately when deployed and I also probably need to spread the land auras around a bunch because lets be honest I am going to be mr strip mine target here.

Earthcraft + Squirrel Nest would likely work fairly well in this deck for any who want to infinite combo. It isn't my thing so I won't be but I just figured I would point out that it fits here fairly good.

BounceBurnBuff wrote: ↑

2 years ago

For what its worth Flickering Ward and Whip Silk are fantastic ways to dump mana and draw up in Sythis. Not even a bad top deck, with Ward having the added utility of getting any pumped up creature through some blockers.

I ran Flickering Ward when I ran Sram and I did also contemplate the potential of Broken Fall / Molting Skin Skin[/card] from the standpoint that they still serve a functional purpose in the deck but ultimately with adding green I have a lot more payoffs for casting enchantments and I am hoping that moving to more enchantresses (the ones that draw) will result in making much of the looping a single enchantment unnecessary.

It is possible that I will need to resort to them, I just thought that to start things out I would rather see if I can go without them. Most of my aversion to them being that they don't accomplish much and spend a lot of time just not doing much with the end objective of drawing cards.

Arebennian wrote: ↑

2 years ago

I'm swapping my Sram over to Sythis. I haven't got a list yet but I'm fiddling round at the moment and I'm glad to see yours to grab some ideas. I've got a Golos Pillow Fort Enchantment deck which seems a bit more of a controlling version (like what you are going for here). I haven't updated it in a while, but here is the list if you would like to look at it (all my decks are 'Private', so I'm not sure if you will be able to see it):
https://archidekt.com/decks/529724#5_Colour_Enchantress

I can get on board with the previous suggestion of the 'return to your hand' enchantments, especially with Serra's Sanctum and Nykthos available.

I'd also consider Season of Growth ; Retether as another source of card draw and filtering, as well as an additional replenish effect.

Nature's chosen ; rancor ; instil energy can provide some interesting utility, although what that utility might be in your build I'm unsure.

Garruk, Wildspeaker or the aforementioned land untappers mentioned by Pokken are a good idea.

Have you considered Crop Rotation instead of Pir's Whim?

Your focus on the

The link didn't work for me.

Season of Growth - It probably fits better in a deck with more proactive auras for creatures than what I am running. It could work with this commander it just wasn't the direction I was really going. The scry is a little underwhelming for me so I would want that sweet draw to seem reasonable to run it.
Retether - Its probably fine. There are a lot of arrest effects and I included a lot of land auras. My hesitation is that its responsive and this isn't a dedicated aura list. I also considered several effects like Sun Titan and Regrowth but ultimately I wanted to be more focused on linearly assembling than recovering post sweeper because if you don't get going in the first place its going to be more noticeable. I guess for me I would question if I have space for more creature tutors over this effect just because it can get you started but also get you recovering from a sweep effect with those where as this is strictly reactive to some mass removal.
Nature's chosen - see my response to Instill Energy as I wrote that first.
Rancor - Its in my deck currently but I don't really have any means to sacrifice it which is ultimately why I think I might cut it. I briefly considered a few effects that can sacrifice permanents / auras but I decided that they weren't good enough cards on their own for me to really build into them. Ultimately my issue with Rancor is that its mostly just trample if I put some large effect on a creature but I don't think its good enough on its own to stay. I just have too few big creatures / means to make a creature large for me to value rancor all that much beyond being nostalgic.
Instill Energy - Are you suggesting this following the Arbor Elf idea? I think its probably going too far down the cute interactions route given how narrow of use said effect is going to be on average. I think you probably need to look at target density as to why I think its not great but its still a cheap enchantment so its probably not the end of the world if it doesn't work.
Garruk, Wildspeaker - I think its fine if someone else wants to run these, I just don't like them on their own and while there are effects in my deck that can make use of untappers I think trying to stack a bunch of the auras on one land is a bit reckless and planeswalkers in my experience are short term effects that get attacked down.
Crop Rotation vs Pir's Whim - I tend to value Crop Rotation a bit more when I have access to Bojuka Bog to be honest but the fact that it brings in a land untapped can be very clutch. Still, I felt like it was unlikely that I was going to turn one Crop Rotate, T2 I am busy with my commander, T3 I am probably trying to fire up some enchantments. So I guess it felt like I wasn't going to crop rotate early so the question is how much you value it being a cheap tempo land swap effect. I don't have a ton of artifact and enchantment removal in here so I did see some value in hitting opponents with Pir's not to mention that its a ramp rather than land swap effect. I think either is fine, I just wanted more means of getting a few key lands into play. Crop Rotation tends to be a way to tempo in a better land where as Pir's is removal / ramp / value land all wrapped up in one. Its true that it costs more to do but its a question of if you want and need to tempo something in with crop rotation and the sort of negative value / tempo that is associated with it.

---

DECK CHANGES:

• Herald of the Pantheon → Dawn's Reflection swapping some of the non enchantment creature ramp into enchantment ramp. Its possible that Herald could provide me more mana a turn if I am chaining well but it doesn't draw me cards. Also the land auras help me cast non enchantment things like my commander and other enchantresses.
• Starfield Mystic → Sheltered Aerie really same as above.
• Sphere of Safety → Market Festival This is a bit of a risk taking out a defense for more ramp but... well lets see how the proactive gameplan goes before I worry about being defensive. I still have Ghostly Prison which is cheaper to cast if I want to tutor for one also.
• Glittering Frost → Weirding Wood I think this is an upgrade in effect.
• Rancor → Verdant Haven Rancor is really cool, but that said I really don't feel like I was supporting it how I needed to justify it. Its better to just move off of it I think.
• Beast Within → Grasp of Fate swapping removal to being an enchantment. Grasp is powerful and I have used it before. The downside of it is that it pisses everyone off and gives everyone an incentive to kill it but on the flip side, its somewhat of a strong tempo effect. I considered some other O Ring effects but ultimately I don't plan to be all that reactive so I didn't value the flash effects as I plan to mostly tap out doing things.
• Generous Gift → Act of Authority swapping removal to being enchantments. I really haven't gotten to play enough Act of Authority so I want to see how it goes. I like the effect in that its not temporary and it offers additional use later in a pinch.

I play Grasp of Fate and Act of Authority on the regular. Brago amps them up for sure.

You don't have to worry about them upsetting the table since you could choose nothing for Grasp for some opponents and Act of Authority is a may.

Thoughts on Destiny Spinner

Kahboom0225 wrote: ↑

2 years ago

Thoughts on Destiny Spinner

I had it in my list but I ended up cutting it. Ultimately my own meta isn't super heavy on counterspells and most of this deck is a bunch of low cost things strung together making me not too fearful of counterspells as a whole. I think countering our enchantresses would be the most devastating thing someone could do to us but the problem is most of them aren't enchantments so they could still be countered and there is also the fact that while our commander is an enchantment its likely I would want to cast my commander and then the Destiny Spinner making it kind of awkward as a defensive measure.

Its nice that it is an enchantment though and if its something you think might be a concern I think its fine to include. I mostly didn't because it lacked defense for the primary thing I would want to defend as well as having a somewhat counter light meta.

Honestly I think I would actually look to City of Solitude over it though as it protects said enchantresses better. Its unfortunate in that it also protects others from counterspells but I think it might give a better protection effect while still being enchantress themed. There are a ton of non enchantress concepts like Grand Abolisher, Defense Grid, and Dosan the Falling Leaf that could also fit similar concepts if you really want. Personally I think its better to just move with a low curve and accept that you will eat an occasional counterspell and rely on a low curve with high draw to push past it. I am far more fearful of someone disrupting my start by stealing / transforming my commander than I would ever be of someone countering anything in my deck.

ISBPathfinder wrote: ↑

2 years ago

Kahboom0225 wrote: ↑

2 years ago

Thoughts on Destiny Spinner

I think countering our enchantresses would be the most devastating thing someone could do to us but the problem is most of them aren't enchantments so they could still be countered...

Go read it again...

Arebennian wrote: ↑

2 years ago

ISBPathfinder wrote: ↑

2 years ago

Kahboom0225 wrote: ↑

2 years ago

Thoughts on Destiny Spinner

I think countering our enchantresses would be the most devastating thing someone could do to us but the problem is most of them aren't enchantments so they could still be countered...

Go read it again...

Valid, I am still not going to run it though. I still think I wouldn't include it unless you specifically are having an issue on that end. Counterspells are not generally effective against low curve draw heavy strats. It has pros and cons over City of Solitude but I don't really see a reason to run either unless you begin to have specific issues on this end.

I think in a lot of cases its a lot better to just be proactive rather than worrying about stopping specific things from happening. Like, we could get noncreature wrathed and it will put us back but its not worth holding up mana and including a bunch of cards that are situational to try to stop it from happening.

I get that these cards we are talking about are still cheap enchantments, I just don't think its worth taking the time and resources to stop something that likely won't be an issue even if you encounter them. Its just as likely that someone spot removes you, wraths you, steals your commander, or transforms them. Of those its worth considering how to stop things that stops you from functioning (aka theft and transform effects) but to some degree we can also just use redundancy of effects to ignore them. Its better to just focus on more generic concepts and things that are less narrow is I guess what I am arguing. Counterspells are a narrow answer that you can encounter and the cards that stop them aren't what I would call particularly good outside of a narrow situation that largely isn't what I would consider to be the weakness of this deck.

My experience in a Tuvasa list with Destiny Spinner is all extremely positive.

I know you prefer to be proactive, and prefer card quantity to quality, but the fact that it stops counterspells is only a small piece of what the card does.
First, it's a 2-mana enchantment, so it's drawing you cards for a low cost anyway.
Second, it can "hold" auras if you want to force opponents to make tougher choices with their removal (enchantress or the guy holding the enchantments).
Finally, its activated ability is BONKERS if you have a decent number of enchantments out. I've certainly had turns where I was activating and swinging with 3 or 4 12/12 (or bigger) trampling lands. This guy has ended as many games in Tuvasa as any other card has.
And do you really want someone countering your All That Glitters, or the like, on a turn you want to be swinging for lethal? Or your commander after it has been removed?

yeti1069 wrote: ↑

2 years ago

My experience in a Tuvasa list with Destiny Spinner is all extremely positive.

I know you prefer to be proactive, and prefer card quantity to quality, but the fact that it stops counterspells is only a small piece of what the card does.
First, it's a 2-mana enchantment, so it's drawing you cards for a low cost anyway.
Second, it can "hold" auras if you want to force opponents to make tougher choices with their removal (enchantress or the guy holding the enchantments).
Finally, its activated ability is BONKERS if you have a decent number of enchantments out. I've certainly had turns where I was activating and swinging with 3 or 4 12/12 (or bigger) trampling lands. This guy has ended as many games in Tuvasa as any other card has.
And do you really want someone countering your All That Glitters, or the like, on a turn you want to be swinging for lethal? Or your commander after it has been removed?

What's the point of protecting auras from counters when spot removal is even worse of a blowout? Countermagic is not going to be good vs. enchantress in the long run because you're cantripping with each one.

The activated ability is intriguing though.

For 2 mana, you counter play Greater Auramancy instead for protection.

umtiger wrote: ↑

2 years ago

yeti1069 wrote: ↑

2 years ago

My experience in a Tuvasa list with Destiny Spinner is all extremely positive.

I know you prefer to be proactive, and prefer card quantity to quality, but the fact that it stops counterspells is only a small piece of what the card does.
First, it's a 2-mana enchantment, so it's drawing you cards for a low cost anyway.
Second, it can "hold" auras if you want to force opponents to make tougher choices with their removal (enchantress or the guy holding the enchantments).
Finally, its activated ability is BONKERS if you have a decent number of enchantments out. I've certainly had turns where I was activating and swinging with 3 or 4 12/12 (or bigger) trampling lands. This guy has ended as many games in Tuvasa as any other card has.
And do you really want someone countering your All That Glitters, or the like, on a turn you want to be swinging for lethal? Or your commander after it has been removed?

What's the point of protecting auras from counters when spot removal is even worse of a blowout? Countermagic is not going to be good vs. enchantress in the long run because you're cantripping with each one.

The activated ability is intriguing though.

For 2 mana, you counter play Greater Auramancy instead for protection.

Totally this. The most appealing part of Destiny Spinner right now happens to be its animating land function but I still think the effect for the mana is a bit high. I also don't think that animating them is worth it before you get to like 8-10+ enchantments which I am not saying that we won't do but I would be much happier with a number of our payoff / wincons before that count in a lot of other cases which is part of what I don't like about the card.

All of that said though, if you like any specific enchantment I don't think there is a problem with playing it. If counter magic is a big thing in your meta and you feel the need to hate on it I think thats fine. I think that there are effects other than counter magic that are likely to be a larger concern for me and I think Greater Auramancy does in fact protect from them better. I probably still won't play Auramancy unless I see a problem on that front. For now while I haven't tested things my plan is to be more proactive with broader use effects and respond as I see problems arise. It tends to be a strategy that I prefer a bit with new decks letting me adjust to things as needed rather than assuming I will have problems from the start.

@TheAmericanSpirit cool to see someone else's list. Have you managed to play it in any games yet? I should have mine completed in the next few days but unfortunately am busy with family things for the usual commander night this week and will be out all next week it seems so unfortunately I am going to be a few weeks without testing mine.

I went back and forth on the Kor Spiritdancer / Sram idea myself. I originally didn't have that many auras to my list but added more of the land auras over time. It looks like I am up to about half of my enchantments being auras currently so I guess they have gotten a little better but a little over 20 is still a little so so in my mind.

OOO I forgot about Titania's Song. I love that card but I totally forgot that it fits into my Stony Silence / enchantress concept.

Solitary Confinement is an interesting thought. Its still a bit tricky though in that without having 2+ enchantresses or some other source of card advantage casting an enchantment to draw one card is still going to run you out of cards. Its an interesting thought though and its very strong defense. I will have to give that a thought. Its nice in that it could still just be used as a one or two turn fog. Yea, I think that's kind of cool.

Our lists look quite a bit different. Were some of your changes dictated by budget / costs? I assume that Exploration is a fairly strong and desirable card to have when drawing a bunch of cards and caring about enchantments for instance. Starfield of Nyx seems synergistic but I was leery of animating all of my enchantments to be honest given that I was going for a low curve concept most of the small mana enchantments being animated seemed like not an asset. Its also slow to start rezing them to play. Elemental Resonance also seems like an odd inclusion when you don't have Bear Umbra which gives mana the same turn and works well with all the land auras. I will be honest though I don't know if Bear Umbra is going to be good enough from the standpoint that I don't run a ton of pump effects or creatures but I figured that cantriping and untapping my lands while losing the totem in combat still seemed like an ok play. I guess we will see how that plays out.